Grace To You

Thank you for equiping us with biblical truth and for teaching us wisdom in order to be ready without having to spend time finding scriptures when put on the spot by these WOF followers.

I pray and ask the Holy Spirit to help me remember what you are teaching me so that I will be ready when I am confronted, too bad I was not ready on time in my past confrontation, I knew they were wrong but had nothing to say in order to correct and defend the truth.

I found the best way to be ready is to teach about it but very few are willing to listen, teaching is the best way to remember and I am very slow to react when put on the spot and have missed the opportunity to correct in love on many occasions.

I would love to be able to teach more and more about this subject, I pray and ask God to use me, to make me His voice, I am ready and surrender to Him, Lord, use me for Your Glory, in Jesus name, I pray and surrender, take me, lead me, use me to spread this teaching to all who You are calling back to the truth.

Gods word is life itself to me. Thank you so much Pastor John for teaching it so well.

What about the passage that says, "My sheep HEAR my voice." And the passage in Joel where it talks about the latter days "young men will dream dreams, etc." I believe what John is saying, but am coming out of a toxic church that taught constant revelation from dreams. Churches were planted and people brought on staff as a result of prophetic dreams. It's SO confusing.

Dear Karen

Thank you for being so truthful in your question. Your right it can be confusing just remember you must take Gods word in its entirety in any book of the bible, also Jesus often spoke in parables "My sheep HEAR my voice." If you take it literal then you have to see yourself as a sheep but you are not you are a person correct? That being said the bible says that Gods word is alive and sharper than any two edge sword so in a way when you read Gods word you are hearing Jesus speak. As for the Book of Joel again we must read it in its entirety. I am by no means an expert but it seems to me that Joel is talking about things that have not be see yet even at the begin he tells us “Has anything like this happened in your days Or in your fathers' days? Tell your sons about it, And let your sons tell their sons, And their sons the next generation.” I like what a great scholar said: “ Surely the essence of wisdom is that before we begin to act at all, or attempt to please God, we should discover what it is that God has to say about the matter. “ D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones

God bless you Karen and keep asking questions.

"My sheep HEAR my voice"

I think we still hear the voice of Christ even today. In the time of Jesus they hear God directly, in the time of the apotsles, the Holy Spirit dictated the word and so it was written. Today we can read them and hear from expository preachers. I do believe the Bible is complete as a standard of our faith and practice - and there is no need to add to it. If we only devote time and effort and money to understand the Bible, I think we don't need such dreams and prophecy anymore.

Here in the Philippines, there are many churches that have signs and wonders, sad to say there signs and wonders are inferior comparing to the works of most cults and occults. I knew these very well because my mother died of an illness which was not properly treated becasue of her belief in the faith healing. The only healing I saw in my mother's eyes was the time I came to share Christ to her last time before her last breath - I saw her tears flowing from her eyes after I led her to pray to recieve Christ - then she died. Thank God she heard the Shepherd's voice.

Indeed it's true, Christ predicted that in the last days many will use the name of Christ and do signs and wonders and they will decieve many (Matt 24). Yet Jesus will tell them "I never knew you"

Amen Alex, I appreciate your testimony, my wife is Filipina and we live in Canada and I know of the churches you are talking about in your country, they are planting churches right here in my own area, they tried so hard to lure me into supporting them financially, but God has given me the Spirit of discernment and I was able to stay out of them.

We need to pray for the Philippines and the people who are working abroad, God will use you to keep the truth alive around you.

May God's blessing abound in your life.

Al

Surely you have heard this argument before, but I will go ahead and mention it.

There were many who prophecied in the New Testament churches whose prophecies did not make it into the NT. Wouldn't that be extrabiblical prophecy that is fueled by the Holy Spirit and yet not on the same level of Scripture? I would have it that you all would prophecy.

If there were a "Make A Wish" foundation for requesting articles, teaching, etc., that I would like to have, I would ask Dr. John MacArthur to write more about "Illumination" and how the Holy Spirit leads and guides us in daily decisions etc. Obviously, we Christians are to be led by the Spirit, and not every decision we face can be backed up or refuted by a Scripture verse. There may very well be a desire by the Charimaticmaniacs to avoid studying Scripture and also there is great deal of "self" involved in "receiving Words" from the Lord, and yet one does desire to know how the Holy Spirit leads and guides, to get real Spirit-originated guidance, and also to avoid "guidance" that doesn't come from the Spirit.

Thank you for your work on this and your manner of life. May The Lord make you like Caleb for these days to go out as before.

Thank you for your work, Thank you so much Pastor John for teaching it so well.montreal,canada,quebec. i am french..i quit greater grace world outreach ,for your teaching.

I remember when Oral Roberts made that "prophecy", that he would die if he didnt raise the money for that hospital. i was just a boy at the time, but it made an impression on me. Is it any wonder that much of the world don't take christians seriously, when false teachers like Benny Hinn and Oral Roberts make such outlandish claims? i remember the scripture in the old testament that God said about a specific prophecy, if it didnt come 100% percent true, it wasnt spoken by Him. I fear for the souls of these false prophets, who will one day step into eternity. Please Lord, have mercy on me, and always help me to rightly divide the word of truth.

The Holy Spirit was active in the early church as we see in the Book of Acts how the Apostles were empowered by the Holy Spirit to do signs and wonders (healing, deliverance, speaking in tongues, etc.). How do we explain what is happening in countries like Africa where healings and other miracles are taking place and bringing more people to the Lord. Sure there are lots of charlatans out there, but i attend a Reformed Baptist Church and the missionaries who come back report how demons are being cast out of people, how people are being healed, and other unexplainable events. These are all conservative Baptist/Calvinist missionaries. Are we to say that this is not possible? God can do anything he wants when He wants because He is soveriegn and we do not define how He operates. He is the Potter and we are the clay? Who are we to question God and how He operates. Just like the Holy Spirit empowered the early church, it doesn't mean He won't do it again. The signs and wonders of the early church authenticated the message that was being preached and who is to say that it couldn't happen again today?

Steve,

I'm glad you asked this question about the signs in Africa, I had heard about them from a Word Of Faith follower and didn't know if it was real but now that you claim Reform Baptist Missionaries speaking about the same thing, I really want to know more, I wish Pastor John could give us his view about this, very good point, I can't wait to hear the follow up on this topic.

I agree with Alain that it would be good to get a report from a very reliable source about what is going in Africa, China, Eastern Europe and other areas where these reports of miracles seem to be commonplace. What I have heard many say is that where the church is being persecuted signs and wonders seem to be prevalent but here in America where we are free to worship as we choose, signs and miracles are not needed. It is confusing and I think it would be helpful if the issue of "reported miracles from overseas" could be further discussed.

Doctor H wrote,

There were many who prophecied in the New Testament churches whose prophecies did not make it into the NT. Wouldn't that be extrabiblical prophecy that is fueled by the Holy Spirit and yet not on the same level of Scripture? I would have it that you all would prophecy.

Certainly there were those who gave revelation in the NT church whose prophesy didn't make it into the canon. Local church "prophets" more than likely existed to help safe guard the new church in the absence of apostolic authority in the form of scripture. However, once scripture was completed, those gifted individuals were no longer needed, and the gift waned.

A few things to keep in mind, however, as we talk about so-called modern day prophets. According to the qualifications of OT prophets found in such places as Deut. 13 and 18, and presented for us in the life of Samuel as recorded near the end of 1 Samuel 3, the prophet were to direct men and women back to a right understanding of God. They taught and proclaimed orthodox doctrine about God. Additionally, the prophet's words will not contradict what has been previously revealed in scripture by prophets who have gone before. And, if the prophet made some pronouncement of a forth coming event, or in a manner of speaking, spoke the future, it would, without a doubt come to pass.

Perhaps there are modern day prophets in such areas as China and Indonesia or whereever. However, if these modern day prophets exist, then their ministries must match what is outlined for us in scripture as to the office of a prophet. God does not contradict himself. Any person, I don't care who they are or where they live and under what extreme circumstance may exist for him or her. If his or her ministry is not conformed to what we have clearly outlined for us in scripture as to the nature of a prophet, the person is a liar. That is why I would exercise caution when holding up someone, especially those in the health and wealth false gospel, as being prophets of God.

Thank you for constantly directing us to Scripture! I am one who went through Experiencing God several times because it was encouraged at our SBC! It was not until my family began hearing the false doctrine of a Blackaby son and the Truth of Scripture from John MacArthur that we began to see the error of "Experiencing God". We left our church and I lost my job at our church because of the stand we took against that false teaching. But, Praise God, He has led us to a new church whose Pastor stands on the Truth of Scripture and that alone. He is a great expositor and we are being challenged and convicted again from the pulpit. Don't think it cannot happen at YOUR church! We had been active members for over 30 years and am still amazed at the people who remain, listen to these lies and believe they are hearing such "Pearls of Wisdom". The ONLY way to KNOW GOD is to KNOW SCRIPTURE! The ONLY way he REVEALS HIMSELF to us is THROUGH SCRIPTURE! Wake up, people! We do not hear voices unless there is something wrong with us! So, thank you, John MacArthur, and all the others who stand firm on the Scriptures and the Scriptures alone!

Brenda, I was exposed to "Experiencing God" in our small group at a Baptist church I attended back in 1995, I almost forgot about it. In the last 2 years, I have been working with a faithful follower of the Word of Faith and one day he told me he could hear God's voice and God answer all his questions, that particular day I asked him if he ever asked what God thought about Kenneth Copland, he said I did and God told me there was nothing wrong with this man, I can not explain how I felt when he told me that, it felt really creepy, I could not believe he actually said that, I worked with this guy and we were in the same small office all day and he kept telling me on a regular basis what the holy spirit was telling him and I could not listen but pretend I was just hoping one day out of love he would hear me out, but there were times where I had to refer back to this God's revelation on Copland and one day he told me those who blaspheme against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, according to him, the fact that I did not believe this was from God made me an enemy of God and of the Holy Spirit, there have been so many other events, this is only one of them, I could write a book about it, I only wish I had known about this site 2 years ago, I have learned so much on the Word of Faith but at the time, I was not yet ready for the challenge and now he has been laid off. I think he only heard what he wanted to hear and I believe it was the fruit of his immagination and as you so well put it, "We don't hear voices unless there is something wrong with us!"

Brenda wrote: We left our church and I lost my job at our church because of the stand we took against that false teaching

It's quite a sad story to leave a local church because of some false teaching.I don't know much about churches outside my country but I never find a church with a perfect theology. I don't know if it exist.

When I was a student, I served in a campus ministry through campus crusade. Being a member of interdenominational org, I had the opportunity to visit different churches with different belief system. Yet I enjoyed serving with those churches no matter how bad theology their theology. I remember one I'm in a crowd where many of them were falling down, very noisy speaking in tongues, etc. Yet I shared the gospel through those chaotic churches.

Now I'm teaching sunday school in a church where one of its distinctives is healing. A church which encourages women to preach. Yet I'm a cessationist, a complementarianist, etc.. and I do teach on those doctrines. Who cares about it? The members love me and I love them. I believe God is using me in that small church.

Come on folks! Don't leave your local church. Give reason for your faith instead - speaking the truth in love (Eph. 4:15).

On Experiencing God, I would recommend this review of Blackaby's theology that can be found here:

http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2009/04/non-sola-scriptura-blackaby-view-of.html

Now I believe the things these minister say is total madness and taking something too far. However I know that God has spoken to me, thats a fact I cannot deny. I am not talking about prophecy but when I was a babe in Christ I struggled with fornication and God told me to read Ephesians 5 and Galatians 5. Both have very similar verses regarding fornicators not inheriting the kingdom of God. I did not know them but in prayer I was most definately led to them.

I do agree that this trying to find out what God is saying all the time is evil, what you need to know God will get it to you. It is like going to a voodoo person, I have heard people say they are trying to get a word when they have not submitted themselves to the word that is slapping them in their faces. Thats a farce as is these "prophets".

Blessings!!

Maybe we are saying the same thing, or maybe I can get clarity. Would my experience be put under the umbrella of these folk?

Could there by a difference between an "impression" to do something and outright saying "God told me." For example, I may be impressed to share the gospel with someone, or go to a passage of scripture. I might pray and ask God to show me specifically how I can bless someone and I may get an impression to take action in a certain way. It may be wrong to emphatically say, "God told me...." to do this as opposed to saying," I felt impressed". It's starting to sound like religion here, but I agree with John. I just came out of a church where the staffing of the church and church plants were driven by "prophetic dreams." The pastor stepped down as senior pastor, and, based on a "series of prophetic dreams and visions," he started his own denomination! He believes he is an apostleto the nations and his wife is the prophet who will oversee the churches they have planted. It's insane! And he constantly taught that he was worthy of double honor as an apostle and demanded a huge salary! No longer happy to shepherd his flock, he is thirsty for power. Over half of his church has left due to his thirst for power and false teaching. And to answer a previous post about staying in a church like this -- I was dying. I was beating myself up because I never had dreams or visions the way the pastor would pray that we would. "Oh God -- speak to them in dreams and visions!" At times I began to even doubt my salvation! But praise be to God, he KEPT me. As I sat and listened to this false teaching week after week I became more and more angry and confused and began to realize that the gospel is a gospel of peace -- not confusion and the seeking after signs and wonders. Sitting under false teaching will destroy a person. It's so subtle -- I didn't even recognize it for a while because there was always a little truth smattered in. But now I've found a church where there is a graduate of The Master's Seminary preaching. What a difference. Pure teaching from the word of God. And thankfully, no dreams, visions or thirst for power -- just a humble man preaching the deep truths of scripture to a hungry flock.

Paul, even though I do not hear God's voice, He does lead me to scriptures, He leads me to His word as you said, this is not the same thing as my friend who said he asked God if there was anything wrong with Kenneth Copland and God answered "ther is nothing wrong with this man".

I totally believe God lead you to these verses, that is what I believe also, God leads us to His Word, He speaks to us through His word, the bible.

Thanks for the responses. I understand what you both are saying.

One thing for sure is ai dont adhere to everyone having a word and people running around trying to get one. Its is evil, of that I have no doubt and the truth is if you claim to be a prophet what you propehsy MUST come to past, else it cannot be God.

Jeremiah 14:14

14 And the LORD said to me, “The prophets prophesy lies in My name. I have not sent them, commanded them, nor spoken to them; they prophesy to you a false vision, divination, a worthless thing, and the deceit of their heart.

Paul, I will share one of my own experience on how God speaks to me, when I was confronted on a daily basis by this co-worker and his Word of Faith beliefs, I prayed because I didn't know what to do, I asked God to use me in order to reach him and as I prayed, I knew the answer was in His Word, I asked for Wisdom and when I opened my bible, I stumbled on Titus 1:10 and I couldn't stop reading, the next day I opened it again and the same verse again, I then started to go to different books and read 1 and 2 Timothy, then got to 2 Peter 2 and then the book of Jude, I was so overwhelmed, I had no idea there was so many warnings against false teachers in the bible but God led me and He opened my eyes and I knew it was Him speaking to me through His Word, the scriptures.

One more occasion I was challenged by the same person on the gifts of the Spirit and speaking in tongue, again I prayed about it and God led me to 1 Cor 14, I read it all again and again, asking for wisdom, He answered all my questions, it was right there in front of my eyes.

I have so many examples I could go on and on, do I hear God's voice, I sure do when I take the time to pray and read His Word, he speaks to me through scriptures.

Benny the Hinn told my brother to say Jesus 7 times, and he would be healed of his depression. He says it worked, and that Benny is full of the Holy Ghost and power.

I said, "He is full of baloney." That was 12 years ago, and my brother and I hardly talk now. I hate all these phony balony preachers, because they cause so much turmoil in the kingdom. And they preach a perverted gospel, which is what i told my brother, which he disagreed with.

Every time I expose Benny for the false preacher he is, I get the old, "You shouldn't touch God's anointed", routine. Oh well, I need to speak the truth in love, and if I am wrong about anything I say, and someone can show me, then i need to humble out, and accept it.

thanks you Dr. macArthur for the very well spoken words. Lord's peace and love to you.

Dear Pastor MacArthur,

Ever since I have read your book "Hard to Believe" my eyes have been open to alot. Since then it has been my mission to search for truth, so I have been buying up everything with your name on it. I too have grown up in a toxic church that thrives on "new revelation." But I need some more clarity. I used to believe that I heard from God directly, from my call into the minisrty, to the reason I began attending seminary, and as far as one day starting a church. Which I know now that we do not recieve direct revelation from God or the Holy Spirit, how can I stay conifident in my call and goals that i set for ministry.

I challange everyone go to paula white"s website click on where it says first fruits!!!! I could not even finish reading it all it is so discusting garb trying to tell you your not in the will of God unless your giving to her so-called ministry its the same form of cultic lies and manipulation coming from the serpants mouth this health wealth and prosperity teaching must be called what it is A CULT !!!!!!!!! SO GO TO PAULA WHITES WEBSITE AND READ FOR YOURSELF !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Paula White is one of many "Prophets for Profit" as I like to call them. Using their ability to draw crowds and twist scripture to mislead those who (dont much about the Bible) listen to every word these big names have to say. I am glad that I got out from under that type of teaching and have joined the truth war to not only expose teachers like paula white, but to also help those who are mis infofmed. ITS ALL THE SPIRIT OF ANTI CHRIST. Let's remember to keep those who follow these false teachers in prayer that they may come to the truth. And yes even pray for these fales teachers that they may be convicted to teach the truth and repint from thier sins.

As much as we would like to blame these false teachers for the spread of unsound doctrine, we have to blame the christian consumer. We (speaking in general) are the ones who purches books, watch their brodcast, and listen to their garbage. If more of us who know the truth put some of these false prohpets on the spot, and speak up around the lunch table we could derail a lot of these "Profits." I promise if Shows like Grace to You aired in my city many people would turn away from false teachers!

you got the jehova"s witness' mormans' christian science ' islam' and these health and wealth prosperity word of faith teachers all man centerd theology all under the same title CULT.... they deviate totaly from the truth. You never hear truths like devine soviern election all sufficiantcy of scripture or bible exposition. reformed theology. they don"t believe in reproving anybody they call that judging. i guess the ones that are truly Gods elect will come to the light but the rest will never see the light and come to the truth. although this teaching seems to be getting worse and more widespread I only wonder how much longer God will allow this to go on God bless GTY......

Not even from so called main-stream christianity do you hear any speaking of eturnal securtiy or or true regeneration. and those that are making doctinal statements are so far off that it dosent even register. We as clergy, and lay-persons alike need to go forth bold and proclaim truth no what the risk and ridicule may be.

While I agree with John that alot of so called prohecies are false , yet many flock to them to have their 'fortune' told. On the other hand, John is speaking from a cessationist point of view. The late reformed preacher D Martin Llyold- Jones was not a cessationist and neither is John Piper. Can someone tell me what John Piper view on this is. I have heard his sermon calling members to 'exercise' the spirit's gifts given to them. How do such gifts operate in his fellowship.The truth might be somewhere in between. Having said that, I truly appreciate John M teachings as they keep me Word focussed.

Alain and Robert,

If you guys would like to know more you can look me up on facebook under my email address spo562@yahoo.com and add me as a friend and then I can refer you to them. Our Pastor David Norczyk is currently on a mission to Kenya and is attending a Pastor's Conference with Phillip Eyster of Eagle Projects International to rectifying the false gospel of the prosperity gospel which is widespread in Africa right now. :) They also just had a mission trip to Ghana not too long ago. We have several regulars on the mission field who wouldn't mind sharing their experiences with you guys. :)

God Bless You,

Steve P Orozco

Hi David,

I'm not sure why you deleted your comment, I'm glad I got to read it in my email, it had a lot of value, sometimes I forget how the Holy Spirit will inspire me to do something without me opening the bible, after all if we had to only rely on scriptures there would not be any scriptures since it was written by men under the inspiration from the Holy Spirit.

We need to be careful and try not to confuse hearing God's voice with the power of the Holy Spirit within us and what you wrote about was true, I've had similar experiences and could share.

Once we receive Christ as our personal Savior, we receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit and as we learn to renounce our flesh and let the Holy Spirit take control of our life, miracles do happen, I believe that described your personal experience.

Without the Holy Spirit, I would never have known there was something wrong with the Word of Faith movement but thanks to God and His precious gift, I could feel something was not right, I felt darkness and turmoil in their presence but when I am with Spirit filled believers, I can feel an inner peace.

I have no education other then a high school diploma and have been a blue collar all my life and English is my second language that I learned at 30 years of age and usually I would read messages but keep quiet but these days, I feel the need to express my opinion, I might not make much sense but I do my best to express my personal beliefs as best as I can put it into words, I apologize if I sound confusing at times.

Revised my comment a bit for clarity.

I come from very long years of affiliation with the Charismatic and Pentecostal but not the kind that seek extra-biblical revelation or message from God in the way mentioned in this article, but it is very sadly true that such a kind make up most of the Charismatic and Pentecostals today and growing fast in number and influence. I am so glad and very thankful that there are preachers such as John MacArther who speak so clearly against teachings that undermine the critical need of believers to rely solely on the Bible for revelations and messages from God. There might be a slight discrepancy, though, in how we talk about an 'impression' or 'illumination' that I still believe can come from God in situations where no scripture verse is directly applicable. For example, I would feel a great peace about an urgent and dire situation while I am praying or even before I pray, and it feels like "Has my mind gone crazy?" because the peace (with assurance that the problem has been resolved) is beyond my intellect or usual pattern of my emotion or imagination. And, as I far as I am aware, every issue has gotten resolved 100% of the time when I had such an 'out-of-mind' peace impressed on me – not that I ever sought or asked God for such an ‘impression’. Now I don't like to talk about this kind of supernatural experience and in fact think that talking about such does much more harm than benefit to the listeners, but I still cannot deny that it happens. I would not have believed and received Christ as my savior and lord if it wasn't for a sudden overwhelming 'illumination' on the Gospel, and I suppose such is what is meant by ‘illumination’ mentioned in the article, but I think we might be underestimating the scope of God’s supernatural guidance in our daily life matters regardless of our conscious awareness. I have an academic background that required me to distinguish between exactly what my intellect is capable of knowing and does not know (i.e., graduate level mathematics and aerospace engineering) and professional background that left little room for wishful imaginations of the heart (not that I am perfectly so), but very specific guidance do come to my heart, which is neither of my intellect or wishful imagination, and they have been crucially helpful in providing for my family as well as in ministry-related situations – not that I place them above God’s written word in any sense. Just one example, in 1999, I had been jobless for nearly a year affected by the Asian economic crisis at the time, and was in a very desperate situation to say the least, and I was so humbled to worship God reading Psalms, etc., and I found myself saying to the Lord that I would continue to praise and honor Him regardless of whether He answered my prayer for provision or not (quoting verses from Hosea with all my heart), and suddenly a strong 'impression' came to me, to make a phone call a certain individual whom I was aware of no logical reason to call, and as awkward as I felt, I called and, to my absolute surprise, ended up getting his help to get a job that became very helpful financially (it was a better job than I had ever had, the position of country manager in South Korea for a business arrangement between General Electric Capital and Sun Microsystems – only one position was open, and 60 or so people were applying for it). Now I don't regard this kind of specific happening as worthy to be classified as a 'testimony' because it does not promote the message of the Gospel at all, and my careless mentioning of such experience would make me no different from the promoters of wealth-&-health or extra-biblical-message-seeking false gospel of greed. All I am saying here is that it happened, and the idea of making the phone call to the person did not come through an illumination on/through any specific scripture verse. I believe that a believer naturally desires to be guided by the Lord in every aspect of his or her daily life, but the problem comes when that desire becomes an idolatry and he or she crosses the boundary of the written word of God and pure message of the Gospel. I would rather shut up and side with the ‘cessationist’ teaching (even though I disagree with it) than letting the talk of ‘guidance’ divert people’s attention in any way from the clear understanding message of the Gospel and our very desperate need to depend on the Bible alone for daily spiritual food, which is actually all we need to seek every day of our life. I am a big fan of GTY articles, accessing remotely via internet from South Korea, -- it is only that I am not a ‘cessationist,’ so to speak, a terminology that Barry Koh mentioned above in his comment, if I understand the terminology correctly.

i used to think TBN was at least tolerable for when shows like IN TOUCH with Charles Stanley and Turning Point with David Jeremiah airs on there, but then i realized i can easily visit their websites and watch their shows in its entirety. i agree with what mr. Carl Frederic commented on, i believe the only way to cut the profits of the bad teachers is to boycott the whole thing.

Forgot to add that I really do appreciate John MacArther's articles, especially those that addresses critical issues in the Christian community with the level of clarity and boldness I think is very exemplary, so much so that I cannot complain about the 'cessationist' thing even though I mentioned it in the above two-cent comment of mine. Thank you, Pastor John!

I find that the hardest thing when trying to lure people away from false teachers is trying to get them to recognize the need for sound theology. Many people think that a good understanding of theological doctrine is only for pastors, ministers and sunday school teachers. The one thing I love about Pastor ManArthur's teachings and books, is how much sound indept doctrine they contains, and put at a level that anyone can grasp it. If the average Christian put more stock in the study of basic theology as well as more than general Bible knowledge, they would be able to recognize false teachings easier and faster.

The more i study God's word, the more i realize just how much i have to learn. The absolute depth of the riches of God's word is such that when you think about, extrabiblical revelation isnt really necessary. The more i learn, the more i realize i really don't know much. i read some of the articles on these websites and i get into books of the bible like romans and i find that nothing compares to the bible for its insight, its morals, its poetry, prohecies. without the bible, i can't even know who Jesus is, much less trusting in Him alone for salvation. Thank you pastor John, for strengthening my conviction that god's word is the authority.

I have encountered Charismatic and Pentecostal believers that make the same beautiful confession about God's written word as Douglas Mollett has just stated above, but they are definitely not the majority. The whole reason I had come to associate with the Charismatic/Pentecostals circle after being introduced to Jesus through fundamentalist (Youth For Christ) missionaries in the first place was because I had to go to college in the US and a group of Charasmatics/Pentecostals I encountered there were the only believers I found on the campus that emphasized holy living, serious Bible study and passionate devotion. Many years have passed since, and I have noticed that the Charismatics and Pentecostals, in general, have tolerated a horrifying array of junky and toxic doctrinal and theological errors, but when I looked at the evangelical side, they didn't look much better, either, as both sides seem to tolerate health and wealth teaching materials, for example, and one can hardly find a fiery preacher of the straightforward Gospel message anymore on either side -- at least that is the case in South Korea despite the nation’s status as a major global mission support base. Both Charasmatics and evangelicals need rescue through a greater spreading of of solid Bible preaching. It is just that clearer biblical preaching apparently come more from the fundamental/evangelical side in the US case. But I think the inclusion of Cessationism can be a great hindrence in the 'rescue' process (I have just looked up Wikipedia to study the terminology Cessationism) particularly for those confused on the Charismatic side unless the theory can be proven biblical in a clearer manner than it seems to have been so far. Learning to understand and accept Reformed Theology has not been so bad so far because the understanding leaves me with a greater gratitude for the salvation work, but I see that trying to understand cessationism can be a much less exciting task. But, other than the cessationism issue, GTY will continue to be one of my favorite resources

I have been reading all these blog comments for quite some time now. And it never ceases to amaze me just how much speaking the truth really sets people free from heresy.

Dr. MacArthur has made a huge impact in the lives of so many people, guided by the Holy Spirit, he has led lead thousand of people out of bondage and into the glorious light of Jesus Christ.

I pray that Dr. MacArthur have a long and even more prosperous life, by leading even more souls to Christ for God's kingdom. He is a workman who never needs to be ashamed.

Mary P.

Alex,

Leaving that church was one of the hardest things we have ever had to do. We were members there for over 32 years. We sat under two of the most wonderful expositors ever for 30+ years there. We tried for months to contend for the faith but after a year of hearing false teaching, listening to the praises of so many who didn't have a clue, and the witch hunts of the leadership trying to get rid of those like us, we were simply becoming contentious. Sunday after Sunday we would go home mad and frustrated that so few were recognizing the lies. Our 19 year old daughter was becoming disillusioned with church so our only option for our family was to leave. My husband and I both felt like we had done everthing possible to no avail.

I agree with not being a church hopper. There are simply no perfect churches because they are all filled with imperfect people. We know we made the right decision for our family because we are actively involved in our new church filling an important need.

I am strongly thinking about attending a good sound church here in Jacksonville. However My family doesn't like the style of praise and worship, and while the content of the mesages are filled with truth they are use to high emotion driven style of preaching. I on the other hand love the church and its enviroment. I plan on attending seminary there this year and would like to it my church home as well. How can I make this move that I know would help us spiritualy but they can't get over the small stuff?

i too have been studying 1 Cor 14, and also been looking at Acts 2. the cessanionist view for me is kinda hard for me to understand. a straightforward reading of 1 cor 14 seems to suggest that tongues do exist, as the apostle Paul lays out clear guidelines for which to follow. However, i like what Paul had to say about it, as he emphasized prophecy(preaching and teaching) is much better than speaking in tongues. he says that its better to speak 5 words that everyone can understand, then 10,000 words that no one understands. i certainly have more studying to do, can someone help me understand how cessassionism works?

I have often debated and studied the things Dr. MacArthur is articulating. In fact, I can confess, I have been often troubled by his theoloical position of Cessationism. After seven years in being a part of a "mainline Charismatic fellowship here in Duluth, Minnesota...I am being confronted by the enumerated errors, and heresies that by denomination has tolerated, although the currnet pastor and his staff are more sound in theology, practice, and how they have handled.."prophetic utterances.' Sadly, after seven years, I have made it known that I no longer with a clear conscience support it with time, energy or my resources financially. The hardest part of this decision is my wife and son who love these people as I do, but think that I wrong, because I am convicted that scripture expressly forbids women from holding elder/pastoral roles and authority within the Body of Christ. This is becoming all too common within Charismatic circles, this constanct acquiesence to waht the culture and the world is demanding of beleivers. I am stunned, and angered when I mentioned to pastoral staff the shenanigans and falsehoods of Todd Bentley. Someone attempted to "correct" me...I was being judgemental of course. After reading more about the "ministries" of Bob Jones, Paul Cain Kansas Cities IHOP, I realized more and more that many who are leading us, and visiting ministers seem to have little discernment regarding these matters. I know when I sit down with my family, that they are going to be heart broken as I confess that I am at fault for leading them astray, and not being rooted and grounded in truth to properly lead and protect them. I am in need of prayer,

The Grace To You website has numerous free resources from John's sermon archive regarding the topic of seeking, finding and knowing God's will. These can be listened to, read, printed, or downloaded from the home page. Use the search keyword box on the top right and type in what you're looking for. Three sermons that come to mind are:

Dear Ron,

i can relate to some of things you are feeling, as the argument i get from those who allow women pastors goes something like this,"they are tucked under the authority of a man, therefore they have the freedom to preach from the pulpit.'' Am i missing something here? Paul said over and over again in his letter to Timothy that all leadership positions in the church(im talking about pastoral, overseers, and bishops,etc.) are male in general. Is there some loophole in God's word that allows a woman to be a pastor? I'm not claiming male domination or sexism here, its just straight from the word. I will remember you in my prayers brother.

Douglas, Google "cessassionism" you will find a lot of info, I read Wikipedia on the subject and it pretty much answer all my questions.

Ron, I just prayed for you and your family, prayer from Edmonton Alberta, Canada.

I too need prayers, I have a wife who refused to obey God's word, totally rebelious and is now turning to New Age and the power of positive thinking, very similar to Word Of Faith except they don't ever mention Jesus name.

The more people we can find who are willing to pray for us, the better.

thank you Alain, i will do just that. God bless you.

Can we hear God’s Voice today?

Deuteronomy 4:36

Out of heaven he made thee to hear “his voice,”

that he might instruct thee.

John 10:27

My sheep hear “my voice,” and I know them, and they follow me:

John 18:37

To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world,

that I should bear witness unto the truth.

Every one that is of the truth heareth “my voice.”

Matthew 11:15

He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Genesis 3:8

And they heard “the voice” of the LORD God walking in the garden...

Genesis 22:18

And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; ( Abraham )

because thou hast obeyed “my voice.”

Exodus 15:26

And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken

to “the voice” of the LORD thy God.

Exodus 19:5

Now therefore, if ye will obey “my voice” indeed,

and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure

unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Psalm 95:7

For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture,

and the sheep of his hand.

Today if ye will hear “his voice,” Harden not your heart.

John 10:3

To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear “his voice:”

and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them,

and the sheep follow him: for they know “his voice.”

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him:

for they know not the voice of strangers.

Luke 6:46

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which “I say?”

Revelations 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock:

if any man hear “my voice,” and open the door,

I will come into him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

John 10:16

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:

them also I must bring, and they shall hear “my voice;”

and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

One Voice - One Fold - One Shepherd

We have left out the part about those who not only claim to here from God directly, but also uses these "revelations" to communicate false prophecies to people. There are peopple running around parking lots saying things like, "God showed me who you are going to marry..." or "god told me to tell you leave your job and within ten days he will provid you with another one!" My former pastor went as far as saying "WHAT GOD TELLS ME OVER RIDES WHAT HE TELLS YOU!" And the people of that church bought it as gospel!

Dear Brenda,

Sorry for making quick comment on your post. Now I understand and I affirm you made the right decision. Thank God you found the right church (not a perfect one) and I'm not so sure but as I can see you got a lot of options in your place. In my country often times no option at all. There are few non-charismatic church here and workers are few. Admittedly, I too sometimes is temted to leave due to discouragement with poor preaching but I stand firm and try to learn preaching myself so I can preach the way it should be.

I guess I just don't get how Hebrews 1:1,2; Jude 3; and Revelation 22:18,19 CLEARLY teach that God speaking to people through prophecy and visions is of the past. Paul seems to teach in I Corinthians 14 to seek the gift of prophecy. I Thessalonians 5:20 says not to despise prophecies. I just don't see in Scripture where it teaches that these things have ceased. I am open to hear what people would have to say.

My guess is there are several sermon transcripts on this site that probably provide the best arguments for cessationism anywhere. Check this series out: http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermon+Series/100

I just don't see in Scripture where it teaches that these things have ceased. I am open to hear what people would have to say.

If God will speak today the way He spoke to the Apostles. Somebody must write His words and add that to the the Bible. Look, Joseph Smith had written the revelation he recieved from his god. Why can't the charismatics write their prophecies? Maybe it's about time they can have 2nd Revelation.

Why would they have to be written down? Not all of Jesus' words were written down. Not all of Paul's were. I don't think there is necessarily reason to believe that all of the apostle's revelations from the Lord were written down. So I don't understand why our would have to be. And I don't think most people would say that prophecies and vidions today are equal to Scripture. Am I way off in this?

So are you saying that prophecies have ceased? JESUS CHRIST THE SAME YESTERDAY TODAY AND FOREVER!! I do agree that there are false prophets in out midst. But that doesn't mean that God hasn't got some true ones that He is using for HIS grlory! Then how do we explain the 5 fold ministry gifts??????

To Alex: There are differences among the following types of prophecis (1) Prophecies or revelations that are worthy to be considered as scriptures(2) The gift of prophecy that we are told to seek to develope (1 Cor)In the first case, both cessationists (such as John MacArther) and continualists (such as John Piper) would agree that the New Testment is complete and there is no more to be added. But in the second case, Apostle Paul talked about our prophesying in part, which means people are stirred by the Holy Spirit to prophesy but they may not catch the complete picturte or the intention of the message and/or even be clumsy in the way they speak it out because of their imperfections. There are also the gifts of wisdom and knowledge, which I think we are referring to as gift of prophecy in this discussion.

To All concerned about the cessation issue:John Piper (I think he is as respected as John MacArther is among the Reformed evangelical circle) has got very sharp and balanced teaching on why he believes the gifts of the Spirit are for today and are to be encouraged. I am noticing that the evangelicals who are convinced about the gifts of the Spirit can provide a far more intelligent and kinder explaination about continualism than any Charismatics or Pentecostals can about their beliefs. The Charasmatics and Pentecostals in general tend to believe things without examing everything against the scripture, and their brains (sorry about this expression) have gotten too lazy. They say "God told me," and "God showed me," and that is the end of argument. It is like a disease, mass dillusion, and I would say it must be some kind of judgement from God for something the Charismatic and Pentecostal circle has done terribly offensive in the sight of God. In the Old Testament, I often notice that people sin and God gives them the kind of leaders they deserve -- corrupt kings, priests and/or false prophets. As for myself, I think I should still call myself a Charismatic or Pentecostal because I have not found a church affiliation yet, but am searching around. I have plucked my teenage daughters out of a pentecostal church they had grown up with and sent them to an evangelical church (they cried and hated me for that at first, but they like the new church now), and I an my wife stay home on Sundays. I am searching now. As for John MacArther, I was referred to GTY by another Reformed evangelical preacher's website, and the more I get to know him, the more I like him. From Charismatic, Pentecostal point of view, John M would be considered a prophet (not in the sense of speaking revelations, but speaking the truth and wake-up calls to the sleeping church). I tend to believe that God in His wisdom has raised up a Cessationist preacher (JM) to speak His admonition to the lukewarm and sleeping children of God, who indeed have the correct understanding about the gifts of the spirit but have not kept themselves true to their calling in Christ. I would imagine that a cessationist would really have to dig into and depend on the scripture because they have so much less distraction. Nevertheless, I really think cessationism is an error, but it is almost an insignificantly minor error in the light of the horrific error of being so casual about (and without a really sincere passion for) the word of God. If I were God, I would honor the first, not the latter.

Forgot mention two more kinds of prophecy or prophetic function: In addition to the two mentioned above, I notice the following types or usage of the prophecy or prophets in the Bible. I don't have the specific book, chapter and verse at hand, but those of you who have read through Bible will recognize and it is also easy to find the exact passages:(3) In the Old Testament, the prophets got revelations, visions or just straight utterances (sometimes they see and they talk, other times they talk what was put into them, and there are other variations), and they also spoke the word of God to admonish His people with regard to their sin. They didn't just speak. They were passionate. The latter part of the prophet's function is the reason why I believe JM is a type of prophet to the church of Christ, at least in the English speaking church, particularly the US. John MacArther is the real prophet today (not those flaky Charismatics that are drunk with some kind of another spirit or mixed at best). I prefer John Piper (I also started reading his stuff only as recently as I started reading JM's) to JM in terms of his being a continualist, but when I read about how he handled the Mark Driscoll case last year, I would regard John Piper more as a pastor, a shepherd, than a prophet. On the other hand, John MacArther gave a very sharp public rebuke to the Seattle young pastor Driscoll, and I am really impressed and I really praise God for MacArther these things that he tends to do, which I consider is a prophetic function in the body of Christ. It is almost as if God put a fire and passion in JM so that he cannot just sit still when he sees a vulgar injustice tolerated in the body of Christ particularly when nobody else speaks out clearly.(4) Somewhere in the book of Revelations also mentions about the spirit of prophecy that is related to the testimony of Jesus or something like that. My apologies for being so dull in handling the word (that is why I am stiking around here at GTY website). So, in this sense, our confession of faith in putting our trust, all of our trust, on the Lamb of God alone can actually be considered as the best kind of prophecy of all prophecies.

I hope my two-cent comment be help to some people. I need to sharpen my knowledge of the word of God and am in the process of repenting for having paid attention to and invested in other things all these years of my Christina life.

Excuse my writing so much. I will try to write less going foward. Also excuse me for any clumsy English language usage - -it is not my first language.

I needed to rewrite a statement above: "Nevertheless, I really think cessationism is an error, but it is almost an insignificantly minor error in the light of the horrific error on the part of Charismatics/Pentecostals of being so casual about (and without a really sincere passion for) the word of God. If I were God, I would honor the first (i.e., a cessationist with a real passion for the word of God), not the latter (a doctrinally perfect believer who nevertheless is lukewarm in heart). "

I have to say one more thing to all who have just come out of abusive Charismatic churches disillusioned. I know exactly how it feels. It feels like a big part of one's life lost and wasted, and one feels like a feel who is forced to humble himself to restart from the very basics of the Christianity again. I just want to encourage and say to all of you that this is actually a very precious opportunity to encouter Christ in a new way. I am sure you know what I mean, but I just wanted to remind you. God will show Himself true to Romans 8:28 as we receive His discipline. One thing that helped me and is helping is this (it may not apply to you, but it might to some of you): I thought there had to be a reason why I had gotten into (or stayed with) the mess in the first place. By the "mess" I am referring to affliation with the flaky kind of 'Christian' organizations. And, I realized that the main reason was because I had loved things other than God. I was being set up for chastisement by God. So, as much as I was nauseated about the horrible sin tolerated in the Charismatic movement, I need to sit down and examine my own heart as I seriously increased my focus and time reading the scriptures. By God's grace, I found many many things to repent for and actually will still grow in repentence. I can have hope now because being able to repent means I will be forgiven and cleansed. At the end of the day, I think I must thank God for His having used all the messy things to bring me to this place of brokenness and repentence from having allowed various forms of sin in my life that I had not realized before. A 'reformed' preacher (whose website introduced me to GTY) said salvation is past, present and future. I thank God for His having kept me in process of sanctification in my life toward a perfect conformity with Christ. What more can I ask for. And I am also assured that God will take care of my family, too, and put us in the exact part of the body of Christ that is reserved for each of us.

Dear David,

i have a lot of respect for you, that being said, id like to share a little bit of my own testemony with you and the rest who would like to read it. i was in a major spiritual drought this past summer, as the word of God had lost its appeal to me for lack of a better word, simply because i let things of the world take 1st place instead of God. i have been attending a charasmatic church for the past 3 months and in a sermon the pastor took a stab at eternal security, and used titus 2:11-14 as his means to show you can be gung ho for Jesus your whole life, but if you turn your back on Him at the end of your life, you will die and spend eternity in Hell. of course i believe that eternal security is true, and it drove me to God's word to examine whether eternal security is biblical. the result of it all is my faith in Jesus has been strengthened, and my focus on God's words returning to its rightful place in my life. it has also caused me to examine the whole tongues issue and the flashy show im witnessing every week, and quite frankly, the above scriptures i just referred to doesnt in any way disprove once saved always saved. my praise in all this is that the LORD is renewing my faith in Him and in His word, and i i just thought you would appreciate that. God bless you.

David said: I would imagine that a cessationist would really have to dig into and depend on the scripture because they have so much less distraction

If Scripture is indeed the innerrant infallible word of God, I can't imagine how anyone would want it any other way.

A man should only seek revelation beyond Scripture once he has exhausted what God has already revealed in Scripture. That has never happened, and will never happen.

So are you saying that prophecies have ceased?

Cessationism does not say that biblical prophecy has ceased, but that the making new prophecy (declaring the future through Divine revelation) has ceased.

Then how do we explain the 5 fold ministry gifts??????

I'm assuming you have a biblical text in mind here. I guarantee that you will find John's answer to your question if you find the transcript on that passage on this website.

It is very hard to find christian people who can tell about Jesus Christ and spread the true Gospel like it is written in Bible. This same situation we have had for a long time so we really need to get back in the Bible.

We need those teachers who will speak the word of God in our time and those shepherds who will feed the flocks in time.

There is always those who will listen even if they are minority so we should care about the quality not the amount. This is something that most of pastors have forgotten.

It is good to remember that "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart". So it means all of our thoughts and intents and because of this reason we should examine our selves and check daily if we are on the right path according the Bible. Amen.

God bless you all in the name and blood of Jesus Christ

Dear David,I felt quite embarrass when I read of you reply. I can see you’re a man of the Word and you really seek the scripture – do not cease on that. I too have been reading non-cessationists authors and I still listen and read them. You can visit Dr. Sam Storms’ website and you’ll find the best argument about cessationism. You can also download John Piper’s preaching about the life of Martin Loyd Jones - how this great preacher was about to cease o f being a cessationist. I would also refer to you the online book in bible.org entitled “Who is Afraid of the Holy Spirit” edited by Dr. Dan Wallace and M. James Sawyer. It is about what they now call as pneumatic Christianity. These are non-cessationist stuff you can struggle about.

I’m attending and serving in a non-cessationist church. My denomination have a prophet named A.W. Tozer and I don’t disagree with that. In the Philippines barely you can find a cessationist; every Christian I meet here believe in miracles and signs and wonders. All of my friends are not cessationists. My missionary friends always talk about thier experience of miracles. My wife is not a cessationist who is now praying for miracle that somehow our son would be healed from his life time disabilities and whenever she close her prayer I would say “amen.”

Why I am a cessationist?

Hi David,

You did write alot but I enjoyed reading them. Continue to share your thoughts. I like your observation on how both the two Johns handled Mark Driscoll. I agree with you that John M operates more from an office of a prophet; he speaks forthrightly the truth from scriptures, admonishing the people of God of their sin and errors; he gives encouragement and hope and warns of judgement; he draws our attention and warns of the false teachers and wolves in sheep's clothings in our midst ; he provides wisdom and guidance through scriptures; etc. This is the sort of prophets the charismatics should have, not the the current ones that read your fortune and make future predictions that don't happen and then gives excuse for that. Sadly many charismatics lack sound biblical teachings and their faith is very dependent and built on questionable signs and wonders and wrong doctrines (WOF kind) , and on prophecies so common and readily available, like in the market place.

Any charismatic or pentecoastal that get excited by John Piper's non-cessationst or continualist position will be disapointed to know that he is of reformed theology not WOF theology and that is a world of difference. WOF theology is in error from the start where WOF says Jesus died 2 kinds of death, a physical and spiritual death and went to hell to complete his sufferings and work . The truth is in Christ's own words while He hung on the cross - it is FINISHED and His promise to one of the thieves that today he will be in PARADISE with Him , and not hell. WOF is in error when abundant life is twisted to mean health and wealth and we can excercise our faith through positive thoughts and verbal confessions to bring all these into reality because we are litte 'gods' as Kenneth Copeland and other NAR ( New Apostolic Reformed) prophets said. It is false when the sovereign will of God is disregarded and we just name it and claim it, and God is like a servant to do our bidding.

I was once a WOF adherent but that was in the past. I read John M daily and listen to his "prophetic" word . I believe the more of God's word, the more we have of Him. The saying that "Too much word dries you up, and too much spirit blows you up" is not biblically correct . The Word and Spirit are one. Jesus said My word is spirit and life. Without the word , you cannot have the Spirit. They cannot be separated. It's just not possible to have more of the spirit without more of the word. While I am a 'continualist', I believe in the simple trust and faith in God and not in myself, my own faith or some WOF formula and principles. In praying for the sick or asking for God's intervention and favour, we simply pray in faith and leave it to our loving God who answers our prayers. I think that is the kind of views held by reformed ' continualist', like J Piper, way different from WOF Charismatics and Pentecostals, way different from the name it and claim it teachings. Those are a different gospel.

This comment is to share with item #25 Alain.

I have had the same experience with people having the same belief as the WF/Faith Healers. There was this one person that insisted on asking me (at church) “what is the Holy Spirit telling you.” To my amazement I did not what to tell him as to was he actually talking to Him? This took place of my fourth anniversary since the Lord accepted me into his Church and I was on my third tour reading the entire bible. On day this same person came to me with the same question to what I said “The Holy Spirit talks to me through the Bible and the big revelation I am having is that what I am reading on the Bible is not what is being preached by evangelical churches today, or so called Christian movements.”

Sometimes I feel alone, and insane just by listening to the kind of biblical errors (horrors) people come up with.

Alain, thanks for sharing.

As for you GTY, thanks. You ROCK!