Grace To You

That pretty much sums it up to me.

A fantastic treatment of the issue. Bell's "theology" seems to fall in line with the most liberal/progressive thinking of our day. He would fit right in with those Spurgeon fought against in the "down-grade" controversy. True theology is only as sound as it is built on the foundation of the Word of God. Extrapolating a theology like Bell does will leave those who follow him standing before the throne of God saying "Lord, Lord" but hearing "Depart from me" (Matthew 7).

Thank you so much for this series. I hope that you will not be "preaching to the choir" in that people who really need to hear this haven't yet connected to this bible teaching ministry. I am gladly sharing and re-posting this series hoping that many well-meaning people may be informed and made wise to false teachers like Bell. Thanks again! "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom"

"It won’t do to sit by idly while someone who denies the danger of hell mass-produces sons of hell (cf. Matthew 23:15)."

I am not attempting to put words in your mouth, but this seems to imply that you think those who believe what Bell does will got to hell. Is that what you are saying?

I certainly agree that it is not scriptural to deny the existance of hell. I have NOT read enough of Bell to know if that is his position. If it is, I would also agree that he is misleading many. Hoewever, is denying hell, even though it is unorthodox and unscriptural, enough to send someone there? It seems to me (I could be wrong on this one), that Bell does beleive Christ is necessary for salvation. While there are many other necessary doctrines one needs to beleive to be considered orthodox, is that not the only one that is necessary for salvation?

Just because someone falsely beleives that someone else might make it to Heaven without Jesus, does that mean that their faith in Jesus for their personal salvation is void?

I am not trying to make light of anyone (including Bell, IF he does) that teaches universalsim or any other false doctrine. It is necessary to point out their errors, and encourage others to be cautious of their teaching. But consigning them to hell seems over the top to me. I don't think that is for us to know or decide.

Matthew: Hence the reason for this series; to show how the god Bell believes in, the christ Bell believes in, is NOT the God of the Bible nor the Christ of the Bible...And that God and Christ cannot save.

Matthew,

Thanks for seeking clarification. What you will read as the series unfolds is Rob Bell doesn't merely deny the doctrine of hell. Prior to this he has denied the biblical gospel itself. John will make that very clear in future posts.

In interviews regarding his book Bell patently denies one must believe in Jesus in this life in order to be saved. Jesus was extremely clear the fruit of false teachers reveals their eternal destiny.

It isn't as though this kind of thing is new, but I certainly am happy that it is being addressed openly. I always wondered why we don't hear much of people being named as teaching things falsely. I don't think it is 'badmouthing' someone to openly expose them if they are not teaching scripture faithfully since it is scriptural to correct those who do not divide the word correctly..and it isn't as though we should be surprised that there are those who will come like wolves in sheep clothing, there are many of them around with well known names attached to them doing this and misleading people.. (misleading means they are not leading in the right direction), its just that we don't seem to see many other well known names openly speaking about it to help steer people back on the right path regarding these things, so I appreciate that PJM is addressing this issue.... there is only ONE True Gospel, and if Jesus didn't save us from the things He himself talks about in scripture.. what did He save us from?

Matthew's (#4) question is a good one, though. Is the denial of eternal punishment enough to certify heresy / apostasy?

I suppose I've not entirely landed that plane yet, but I suspect that the answer is yes. A rejection of eternal punishment betrays a failure to understand the absolute and infinite holiness of God, and therefore a failure to understand the nature and depth of our sin before God. This leads to a failure to understand the nature of both Christ's person and His atoning work on the cross for that sin of ours that we don't understand. This leads to our trusting Him for a righteousness before God that is at least quantitatively different than the righteousness that we actually need.

So: a wrong view of God (indeed, the essence of God's character), a wrong view of sin, a wrong view of ourselves and our need, a wrong view of Christ's sufficiency as Savior and the depth and breadth of His atoning sacrifice, and a wrong view of faith. That's quite a lot of doctrine at the very center of the Christian faith and the Gospel to get wrong and still be considered merely a misguided brother.

Further, one might reserve judgment on those who are simply misguided because of lack of sound instruction. But Bell is proposing to be a teacher of this stuff. I think that's quite a lot of substantiation for MacArthur's comment on Matt 23:15 above.

....interested to see how the rest of the series unfolds.

@Michael Riccardi [Q]Matthew's (#4) question is a good one, though. Is the denial of eternal punishment enough to certify heresy / apostasy?[Q]

Well if you are teaching that Gehennah does not exist yet scripture teaches that it does, then you are teaching falsely.

People try to understand God by judging Him by their own moral standards.. so they do not see God's wrath and choose only to look at God as only Love, but then even that love is in accordance to their own moral standards.

Whether we like the idea of eternal punishment or not does not give us the right to teach against it when scripture teaches it as something that is very real.

In order to teach that eternal punishment does not exist, we have to deny certain things in scripture.. ie, Rich man and Lazarus Luke 16, Some raised to everlasting life, some to everlasting contempt Dan 12:2.. names that are not written in the book of life Rev 20:15... so it makes sense that in order to teach no eternal separation from God, you have to deny the authority of scripture or that scripture is fully trustworthy...which I hear lots of times nowadays.. ie, relative truth vs absolute truth etc...no one really knows etc.. The Holy Spirit knows, and He will lead and guide into ALL the Truth.. which also means, the Truth can be known.

I asked Dr. Bock at the DTS blog about his view of Bell as a Christian since he called him "brother." Dr. Bock said that he does consider Bell a brother since did not deny the gospel. This will be an interesting series of posts. I'm looking forward to them.

Michael, I fall under your definition of heresy. But I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that He is God, that He is the Messiah, that all authority has been given to him in heaven and on earth, that he died for my sins, that when a person repents and believes in Jesus he becomes a child of God and inherits eternal life, that God will judge men justly and that those whose names are not written in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire. That should make me an orthodox believer, but some would like to add that I must believe that the just punishment for sin is eternal torment.

Since the Bible never says that unbelievers deserve eternal torment or that they will be in anguish or pain or weeping or tormented forever but it does say that the fury of a fire will consume the adversaries(Heb 10:27), that the wicked will gnash their teeth and melt away (Ps 112:10), and that they will consume into smoke(Ps. 37:20), I no longer agree with the traditional view of how long unbelievers are conscious. This does make my view of the nature of justice and the nature of God different from most. I believe that God's holiness and justice demand that every sin must be accounted for and that God requires justice for each sin-- in a measured way culminating in the destruction of body and soul in the Lake of Fire (Matt 10:28). The traditional view is that every sin becomes infinite because God is infinite and therefore the atonement must have been infinite. Since that is not taught in scripture, but is developed from the belief in eternal torment, it should not be allowed to define orthodoxy.

Nicky, I consider the scriptures completely authoritative but I do not believe that unbelievers suffer eternal torment. The examples you gave are often considered to support the idea of eternal torment, but they do not. The Bible does not say that the Rich man suffered eternal torment in Hades. In fact, the Bible says that Hades will be emptied and cast into the Lake of Fire. (Gehenna and Hades are not the same place.) Daniel 12:2 refers to everlasting contempt but everlasting contempt only requires that the one who has contempt is conscious forever. We hold Hitler in contempt but he is not conscious of it. God holds men in contempt forever but that does not require that they are in pain or conscious forever. You mentioned that those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire, but the Bible does not say that these people are tormented forever there. Jesus said that God is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna, and Hebrews says that the fury of a fire will consume the adversaries.

While I do not know what Rob Bell thinks enough to answer for him, please consider the possibility that there are true Christians who believe that the Bible says that unbelievers will be destroyed in Gehenna.

Nicky,

I don't dispute anything that you've said. Do you think I have?

Well if you are teaching that Gehennah [sic] does not exist yet scripture teaches that it does, then you are teaching falsely.

That's true, but teaching something that is out of accord with Scripture doesn't in and of itself mean that such a teacher isn't saved. It depends on what that teaching is. For example, I believe that the rapture of the Church will occur before the tribulation because I believe Scripture teaches that fairly clearly. But that doesn't mean that everyone who teaches a post-trib rapture -- though out of accord with Scripture -- is going to hell. One doesn't have to have perfect theology to get into heaven.

So we have to demonstrate how a belief or lack of belief in a particular doctrine undermines the Gospel, the character of God, and/or the person of and work of Christ before we can make as weighty of a pronouncement that someone is not a Christian. So my above comment sought to do that.

The whole concept of discernment recognizes that, at times, confrontation is necessary, despite the fact that some may consider any confrontational language to be unloving. To shout at a child about to be run over by a truck is not unloving, even if the voice is raised and the words are sharp-edged and blunt. And let's not forget that Paul opposed Peter to his face because he was not being straightforward about the Gospel. Opposition is a duty when the clear truth of God is at stake. Where error is communicated widely, as in a book or video, a courageous warning must be given to those about to be run over by it. Rob Bell has been confronted privately by many, starting with his woeful teaching in Velvet Elvis. The time for public warning has come. Thanks John!

*Shauna Bryant logged in*

I am glad you are doing this series. False teachers, no matter how 'popular' they are, need to be exposed and gty is known for biblically and firmly handling such matters, which is greatly appreciated. This series is not only good for believers (who know about RB) but also those who don't or who are still on the fence regarding him. I know I've already emailed links here and know people who are grateful to have this source to more concisely explain to others the error's of RB's false teachings. What will not amaze me is the backlash from 'mainstream Christianity'. The dividing line is going to cut deep as it should.

Regarding post #4.

Thankfully, God's Word has much to say to the false teachers and their followers, so we don't have to worry about it being only our opinion. That's what is so wonderful about standing on the Word of God. It's His Word, not our opinion.

Rob Bells followers are not merely misguided (true believers will leave). God's Word says that the false teachers are actually brought in by the desires of the false worshipers. His Word also clearly establishes hell effects sin, condemnation, judgement, salvation....to name but a few, while also directly denying the clear Word of God. I believe that if someone claims to be a Christian yet also claims that another person can get to heaven another way (as was used for an example) then they are not saved, but deceived. That also makes them guilty of promoting a false gospel. That is no small matter. The Bible does teach about those who try to get in 'by another means'. The self professed Christian in this scenario is calling God a liar, for His Word clearly teaches there is only one way.

Two verses to consider:

2Timothy4:2-4

2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

and

2John 1:9

9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

I’m currently using John MacArthur’s NT Commentary on 2 Peter & Jude to more deeply study these 2 NT epistles which expose the fate of false teachers & those that follow them. To quote John’s quote from Puritan John Owen:

“It is incumbent on them [pastors] to preserve the truth or doctrine of the gospel received and professed in the church, and to defend it against all opposition. This is one principal end of the ministry….And the sinful neglect of this duty is that which was the cause of most of the pernicious heresies and errors that have infested and ruined the church. Those whose duty it was to preserve the doctrine of the gospel entire in the public profession of it have, many of them ‘spoken perverse things, to draw away disciples after them’. Bishops, presbyters, public teachers, have been the ringleaders in heresies. Wherefore this duty, especially at this time, when the fundamental truths of the gospel are on all sides impugned, from all sorts of adversaries, is in an especial manner to be attended unto.” (pg 96)

I’m reminded from this morning’s group Bible Study that the name “satan” means “adversary”. I’m reminded from this Puritan writer that attacks & heresies against God’s Word are nothing new. In fact, reading Genesis 3:1 shows “the adversary’s” tactics haven’t changed since the beginning of our recorded time.

We are to be discerning, & we do that by KNOWING what God’s Word/Holy Scripture says, thus we are able to recognize the false teachings & false teachers when they approach.

Q: What kind of fruit is this Rob Bell producing?

Comment 1: I’m seriously saddened to hear Mart DeHaan’s response – I’ve been a DTW listener for many years!

Comment 2: Puritan John Owen called it “sinful neglect” of the pastor’s duty, I agree; & if it is not simply neglect, it is then willful, but either way, it is sin. Call it what it is. It does not glorify our God to claim His Word is a lie.

Since the Bible never says that unbelievers deserve eternal torment or that they will be in anguish or pain or weeping or tormented forever...

But the Bible indeed does teach this. If you're looking for every passage in Scripture on hell to include the phrase "eternal torment," you're requiring an impossible standard. Eternal torment is taught in Scripture even while the phrase is absent from Scripture.

but it does say that the fury of a fire will consume the adversaries(Heb 10:27),

A quotation from Isa 26:11 that speaks of the first death, not hell.

that the wicked will gnash their teeth and melt away (Ps 112:10), and that they will consume into smoke (Ps. 37:20),

These are poetic ways of describing the destruction of God's (and Israel's) enemies from this life (and perhaps even in the coming Day of the Lord judgments), but not in hell.

I believe that God's holiness and justice demand that every sin must be accounted for and that God requires justice for each sin-- in a measured way culminating in the destruction of body and soul in the Lake of Fire (Matt 10:28).

The destruction of the soul and body is a consummate destruction. Thus, eternal punishment is like dying every moment.

The Lake of Fire is not temporal like Hades and Gehenna. Revelation 14:9-11 teaches that anyone who fails to repent, "will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

If your response is that only the smoke of their torment is eternal, I'd say you're desperately trying to avoid the plain meaning of that passage. They'll be tormented, and the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever. They have no rest day and night. That doesn't sound like something that will end.

The traditional view is that every sin becomes infinite because God is infinite and therefore the atonement must have been infinite. Since that is not taught in scripture, but is developed from the belief in eternal torment, it should not be allowed to define orthodoxy.

No, sin doesn't become infinite. It iis infinite because all sin is against an infinite being. That's not "developed from the belief in eternal torment," either. That's a response to the argument that punishment can't be eternal for finite beings who commit finite sins. There's a difference between making a positive argument -- which this is not -- and defending another positive argument against an objection.

As I read through the March 14 interview with Rob Bell it struck me that he sounds like the cults. He constantly interjected human philosophy into scripture to make it match his philosophy. He also twisted scripture in order to fit his philosophy. For example at one point he quoted Jesus as saying "He who is not against me is for me". Which is the exact opposite of what Jesus really said in Matthew 12:30. Obviously this guy's false teaching goes beyond just Universalism. Thanks GTY for exposing another wolf in sheep's clothing.

In addition to Mike's reference to Rev 14:9-11, there is also Revelation 20:7-15 which also make eternal torment clear and undeniable.

@Joy [q]Nicky, I consider the scriptures completely authoritative but I do not believe that unbelievers suffer eternal torment. The examples you gave are often considered to support the idea of eternal torment, but they do not[q]

Joy, I didn't talk about eternal torment at all. It doesn't really matter what you and I believe, what matters is what scripture teaches.. and regardless of whether we think it is torment/punishment or whatever, it is eternal separation from God since there is no reconciliation to God through Jesus for those who reject the Gospel...and the worse thing of all is those who preach a different gospel.. such as.. there is more than one road to God, or as a Universalist will say, you don't need to repent and believe because your saved regardless and there is no such thing as hell (Gehenna/Second death/Lake of Fire).

I know that Gehennah is different to Hades.. the issue here is as far as I understand it, is there are many Christians who deny the existence of Gehennah because they believe God is love and there is no such thing as eternal punishment or whatever you want to call eternal separation from God.

@Michael - No, I didn't think you was disputing anything, I was just responding... AND, I don't think that everyone who teaches something incorrectly is in trouble.. lol - we are all learning and we are told in scripture to expect to be corrected if we get things wrong.. I know I have had wrong ideas of things before and the Holy Spirit has guided me to learn the truth of something which has turned out to be different to what I initially thought.

There are some however who are blatantly false teachers who will not accept correction..this is evident in both the OT and the NT. we don't always know who they are.. and I do not believe that all those who sit under false teaching are heading for hell etc.. absolutely not.... its just a matter of us being open to study the scriptures for ourselves, test everything, examine ourselves and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and keep our ears open to Him to lead us into the truth and make it known to us when we are hearing something that is not true...and discern the difference between what is of God and what is not.

Joy,

Just one other response to add to Mike's comments. You mentioned you believe in the Lake of Fire. I would encourage you to understand that you can't simply accept the existence of the Lake of Fire while at the same time rejecting the nature of the Lake of Fire--both of which are clearly described in the same passage.

You'd have to do some clever kung fu to divide those passages up like that.

Yes, I been waiting for this blog. Thanks for sharing that.

We need to know things like that. sheepskin over wolves that

are going in.

Rob Bell and those that follow his attacks on the Bible are represented as something new. But instead they are merely repetitious of allegations made for atleast 1800 years. They are as original as dirt-and about as interesting. The problem is these new champions of enlightened reason don't appear to be aware that their ideas are literally millennia's old.

2Co 10:5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,

6 and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete.

Thank you so much for this warning and encouragement to be watchful. I bought a DVD of Bell's last year and looking back on it, I realize that at that time I was so impressed by his witty remarks and very intellectual lectures of Everything Is Spiritual. Just as the Spirit expressly says that such men like Mr. Bell will deceive, I praise God that Christ showed me Bell's error through this posting. Make this word be applied to Bell and all other wolves in sheep clothing.

Do not add to His words,

Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar. Proverbs 30:6

God bless,

Justin

Thanks for that encouraging testimony, Justin. May God continually rescue and preserve His people from the influence of men like Rob Bell.

I am glad that GTY is doing this series. I had a feeling this was in the works with all the attention Bell's new book has gotten on the blogospere's. I have not read the book and honestly don't plan to. I am sure that GTY will provide some links to some of his news interviews and such. You can also track down the video introduction to his book and it is really shocking. He denies being a universalist in his news interviews but states the oppostise in his video intro to the book. He implies that men like Ghandi are not in hell and that we can't know this for sure. Scary stuff..

Michael, I don't expect that every passage on hell should include the phrase "eternal torment," but I do take note of the absence of an explicit statement of any kind of eternal pain in the Bible in regard to unbelievers.

Heb 10:27 is a warning that if we go on sinning willfullly after receiving the knowledge of the truth there is a certain expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Since this is a conditional warning, it cannot refer to the first death. We all experience a first death. This is a warning about the judgment, the second death.

These passages about literal destruction are prophetic of judgment:

...As therefore the tares are gathered and burned up in the fire, so shall it be in the end of this age. Matt. 13:30, 38, 40

..Sodom and Gomorrah...serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. Jude 1:7 ...By turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly. 2 Peter 2:6

Revelation 14:9-11 does not refer to the eternal state of unbelievers and does not refer to eternal torment. It is an angelic announcement of the bowl judgments which the beast worshipers are about to experience on the current earth in chapters 14-16. Both the announcement and the description of these judgments include scorching fire and heat, cataclysmic geological events which would normally be accompanied by abundant brimstone (since brimstone is sulfur which is released by geological activity), the presence of angels, the presence of one like a Son of Man, and enough upheaval, pain, and heat to keep the beast worshipers wide awake and enraged night and day. But this is not their eternal state. These same people will go on to be part of a battle (Rev. 19:19-20), will be slain by the sword of Jesus' mouth (Rev. 19:21), will be judged with the dead (Rev. 20:12), and will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Rev. 20:15).

As you noted the only thing eternal in the passage is the smoke. To understand what is meant by eternal fire and smoke, it's important to look at how they are normally used in the Bible. Eternal smoke and fire usually result in the complete literal destruction of the places and people involved. Edom was judged with eternal fire and smoke, but no humans are there anymore. Isa 34:1 Babylon will be destroyed by fire and its smoke will go up forever, but Babylon will not continue to exist. Rev.18:8; 19:3; 18:21 These other uses of eternal smoke refer to complete destruction not to ongoing torment.

The torment described in Revelation 14 occurs "in the presence of the Lord." The final state of unbelievers is "away from the presence of the Lord" (II Thess. 1:9). Since these descriptions are opposites, they cannot be referring to the same event.

Joy,

Revelation 19:20-21 make it clear that the beast and the false prophet (humans) are thrown alive into the Lake of Fire, while the rest of enemies are killed to await the Great White Throne Judgment.

Then Rev 20:10 state the devil (spirit being) is also thrown in joining the beast and false prophet (humans). Those three, explicitly, will be tormented "day and night forever and ever."

Then, all the rest who are dead are subjected to the Great White Throne judgment and those not found in the book of life join the devil, the beast, and the false prophet in the Lake of Fire.

Would you agree with Rev 20:10 that state that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet (one spirit, two humans) will be subject to eternal torment? If so, are you saying everyone else who arrives at that same location will disintegrate?

Also, would you help me understand where "death" in the Bible means "to go out of existence"? The first "death" doesn't mean that (your body dies, but your spirit continues, and your body will be reunited with your spirit in the judgment so neither actually go out of existence). So on what basis does the second death mean "to go out of existence"?

I read this article by John MacArthur, with great sadness, because I see my old self in this Rob Bell, and in my belief, it is a bad place to be. The mental gymnastics one must perform to justify Rob Bells view of scripture is torturous. Whenever someone would try to explain the truth to me, I would rant and rave at them, tell them how wrong they must be because "my god" was a "loving god" not some big meanie in the sky gleefully consigning people to some firey pit. I still shudder when I think of the person I used to be, but for the "Grace of God" I would still be.

Some years back I went through an extremely bad time, this was an experience where some people make their final turn from God. The marvelous people that came into my life at that time could only be attributed to the work of the Holy Spirit. They held my hand, counseled me, taught me, loved me and most undeservedly God opened my spirtual heart to recieve Him and the Truth.

So you see, people like Rob Bell, frighten me because it was people like him that I allowed to tickle my ears for many years. His view point is dangeous and will have the potential of leading many astray.

Thank you Pastor MacArthur and GTY staff for this blog and the clarity that you have given on Rob Bell and other false teachers. My husband and I both come from the false teaching of the Word-Faith and Prosperity Gospel. Through our studies in Bible College the Lord opened our eyes to the truth of His Word and has given us much grace in opening our eyes to those false teachings. We are now Reformed in our theology and trust that God is pleased with our stance on the Scriptures. Pastor MacArthur and GTY staff, now my question is how do my husband and I share the truth about those false teachings that our family and other Christians we meet currently believe? Where should we start? The Gospel Message sounds like the best place to start to see if they understand it and if they are saved. But what about after that conversation. How do we address their false teachings and false teachers that they follow? How would one start a conversation with someone who follows Rob Bell's teachings in order to show them that those things which they believe are not scriptural? We definitely want to speak the truth IN LOVE, and the latter has been hard for me to do with my own family. Please give some insight on this matter, thanks. May the LORD bless and keep you Pastor MacArthur and GTY staff.

To not believe in Hell is to mock the very reason that Jesus Christ came to this earth. It is He, and only He that can save us from eternal punishment. We are sinners, and sinners who do not repent of their sins go to hell. God sacrificed His only Son to save humanity. To disbelieve in hell is not understanding the "whole" Gospel. You can't simply say you don't believe in major doctrines of the Bible (the Christ's virgin birth, the Trinity, repentance, etc) without certain consequences. It is the whole gospel, or there is no gospel at all.

What stands out to me that to know this in Isaiah that Rob Bell should

know there is a hell.

Isaiah 66:22-24

As the new heavens and the the earth that I make will endure before me, declares the Lord, so will your name and descendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind

will come and bow down before me, says the Lord. And they will go

out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me;

their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they

will be loathsome to all mankind.

Let me clarify that I believe that it could take a very long time for some people to experience justice-- but not an infinite amount of time.

On eternal fire: Eternal fire is capable of destroying its object (Isa 34:1: Jer 17:27;Jude 1:7;II Pet 2:6) The Lake of Fire is capable of destroying. Death is cast there and death will be no more.

On whether the Beast and FP are human:

It is commonly taught that the Beast in Revelation is the same as "the Man of Sin" described in 2 Thessalonians 2. However, these two cannot be the same person because the descriptions of their fates are incompatible. The Man of Sin will be SLAIN by the breath of the Lord (II Thess. 2:8). The Beast and False Prophet will be seized and thrown ALIVE into the Lake of Fire (Rev. 19:20).

The use of the word "man" in II Thess 2 and the use of the phrase “number of a man” (Rev. 13:8) have been suggested as evidence that the Beast is a human. However the use of the word “man” does not prove that he is human. Biblical references to angels and theophanies sometimes use the word "man" when they clearly do not mean a human (Gen 19:1,10; Gen 32:24; Dan. 10:5). When in doubt, the identity is determined by other information in the context.

Reasons to question the humanity of the Beast and False Prophet:

1.It is appointed unto men once to die and after this the judgment (Heb. 9:27), but the Beast and False Prophet do not die. They are thrown alive into the Lake of Fire and are already there being tormented day and night at the time of the judgment of men (Rev. 20:10-11). Humans die. These guys don't.

2.They go directly to the Lake of Fire and never go to Hades. Unbelieving men go to Hades at death, are judged at the Great White Throne Judgment, and are finally cast into the Lake of Fire. But the False Prophet and the Beast skip both Hades and the final judgment of men and go directly to the Lake of Fire.

3. Birds are promised the flesh of all men both great and small at the Great Supper of God (Rev. 19:17), but the birds get no flesh from the False Prophet or from the Beast because they are seized and thrown alive into the Lake of Fire (v. 20). If the Beast and False Prophet were men, the birds should have been given their flesh as they were promised. The fact that the birds were not given the flesh of these “great men” is easily explained if the Beast and False Prophet are not men and have no flesh.

4. The Beast comes up out of the Abyss (Rev. 17:8). All of the other beings associated with the Abyss are non-human.

5. Satan, the Beast, and FP have three unique experiences in common. Spirits of demons like frogs come out of their mouths, they are the only three cast into the Lake of Fire before the GWT Judgment, and they are the only three who are explicitly said to be tormented forever.

In a book filled with non-humans, the Beast and FP having features different from humans gives us reason to question whether the False Prophet and Beast are human.

Eileen Harris:

What a beautiful, beautiful testimony. I praise the Lord for the work He has done in your heart.

Rob Bell is an easy apostate to spot. The ones that I fear the most are the evangelists who over the years have established themselves in main stream Christendom, and who seemed to be quite orthodox, then we find out later that they have always been Universalists, believing that many roads lead to heaven. And these false teachers are still receiving the same esteem and following that they always have. The most dangerous false teachers are, in fact, the teachers who come closest to the truth. Just enough truth is needed to lead many astray.

It's bad enough to read some of his work, but to actually hear him speak on TV or on the internet it's even more tragic. How can anyone trust the teachings of someone who says "I think" so much when it comes to the Bible? I never cease to be amazed at how so many people keep teaching a book they don't even believe in. What a waste of life to spend all your time trying to explain away everything, when accepting the Truth is so much simpler. These people need to denounced and rebuked as strongly as possible. They appeal to the pride of people by saying that you can believe in another god because the God of the Bible is just not appealing enough. There is so much suttle compromise in what this false teacher says, that even accepting a small part of his heresy cracks open the door to so much more of his deadly lies. This tree needs to be cut at the root now and kept from the public ear. Sadly discernment is next to absent in many churches and I fear that many might join him because of all the attention he's getting. So many churches looking to be "relevant" and popular jump on things like this, ignoring biblical doctrines in the process. Posts like this one need to go out to as many people as possible to warn against not only him but against everyone who manipulates the Bible for their own ends appealing to poeple's need to know God.

Keep up the great work, warnings like this one and the many truths shared in other posts are undoubtedly saving many lives.

A few thoughts on this thread:

1. Dr. MacArthur's article is not about a church-goer who has been taught to believe a certain teaching about hell; it is about an influential teacher who has long troubled the church with questionable and at times horrific teachings. The passages on heretical teaching in the Scripture all speak of rebuking false teachers and prophets. To compare Rob Bell to a person in the pews who has expressed confusion regarding hell is to entirely obscure the biblical issue.

2. This article did not address Bell's teaching on hell directly. Rather, the argument was that Bell has for some time and in various writings presented a view of God contrary to that of scripture. Bell's confusion on hell is the outworking of that long history of false teaching. Be clear at least on what Dr. MacArthur's contention is here before criticizing him.

3. Because of the above, Bell cannot be properly classed in the same group as evangelicals who have merely questioned the eternality of hell. In his recent book Bell has presented a God who is characterized only by a sentimental form of love - a love which excludes or at least veils all other attributes. He has suggested that those who die in open rebellion to the gospel will have an eternal opportunity to change their minds. John Stott and Philip Edgecombe Hughs would be appalled. It is simply disingenuous to act as though the only issue here is the eternality of punishment - albeit that is an important issue in itself.

4. For years now, Dr. MacArthur has demonstrated genuine broadness of spirit within evangelicalism while at the same time taking an uncompromising stand on non-negotiable truths. Of all the men of our age who have a very public ministry - men with whom I often disagree on some particulars - I am especially appreciative of Dr. MacArthur. When dangerous falsehood troubles the church, he is one of the most reliable defenders of truth. He has earned the right to be heard in the series of articles which he has promised.

Let me clarify that I believe that it could take a very long time for some people to experience justice-- but not an infinite amount of time.

The body without the spirit is dead Jas (2:26). A dead body does not have life, is not conscious, is powerless and insensate, and rots away. God resurrects the body apparently by way of a seed from the first body (I Cor 15:35-38) before it dies a second time. If God is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna, the same thing can happen to both body and soul.

Eternal fire is capable of destroying its object (Isa 34:1;Jer 17:27; Jude1:7;II Pet 2:6. The Lake of Fire is capable of destroying. Death is cast there and death will be no more.

It is commonly taught that the Beast in Revelation is the same as "the Man of Sin" described in 2 Thessalonians 2. However, these two cannot be the same person because the descriptions of their fates are incompatible. The Man of Sin will be SLAIN by the breath of the Lord (II Thess. 2:8). The Beast and False Prophet will be seized and thrown ALIVE into the Lake of Fire (Rev. 19:20).

The use of the word "man" in II Thess 2 and the use of the phrase “number of a man”(Rev. 13:8)have been suggested as evidence that the Beast is a human. However the use of the word “man” does not prove that he is human. Biblical references to angels and theophanies sometimes use the word "man" when they clearly do not mean a human (Gen 19:1,10; Gen 32:24; Dan. 10:5). When in doubt, the identity is determined by other information in the context.

It is appointed unto men once to die and after this the judgment (Heb. 9:27), but the Beast and False Prophet do not die, and they skip the judgment. They are thrown alive into the Lake of Fire and are already there being tormented day and night at the time of the judgment of men (Rev. 20:10-11).

Birds are promised the flesh of all men both great and small at the Great Supper of God (Rev. 19:17), but the birds get no flesh from the False Prophet or from the Beast because they are seized and thrown alive into the Lake of Fire (v. 20). If the Beast and False Prophet were men, the birds should have been given their flesh as they were promised. This easily explained if the Beast and FP are not men and have no flesh.

The Beast comes up out of the Abyss (Rev. 17:8). All of the other beings associated with the Abyss are non-human.

Satan, the Beast, and the FP have three unique experiences in common. They have spirits of demons like frogs coming out of their mouths, they are the only three cast into the Lake of Fire before the White Throne Judgment and they are the only three who are explicitly said to be tormented forever.

In a book filled with non-humans, the Beast and FP having features different from humans and experiences in common with Satan give us reason to question whether the False Prophet and Beast are human.

Extrapolating the torment of these 3 is weak support for such a serious doctrine.

Joy,

Thanks for your response. While it is true that it is appointed for man once to die, this was not true of Elijah, nor will it be true of those who are either raptured or who are alive at the second coming. So it isn't a valid argument against the best and false prophet being non-human.

Regarding your view of 2 Thess 2:8. It is likely that by "kill" Paul means the same thing as John means by "throw into the lake of fire". The two are not incompatible. Their fate is the same--the lake of fire. The word "slay" in the NASB or "kill" in the ESV is ambiguous in the manner of the slaying. It's also translated "consume", "destroy", and "overthrow" by various translation. The Greek word can also mean "to do away with" as in Heb 10:9. The fate of the Man of Sin and the Beast are the same.

Another problem with seeing them as non-human is the description of their activities are distinctly human. Also, the fact that they are thrown alive into the Lake of Fire indicates they are human. Spirits aren't referred to as "alive" or "dead". Notice that the devil isn't said to be thrown "alive".

You referenced Jude 7 as an example of fire destroying it's object. If you look carefully at the passage, Jude 7 is not referring to the cities in an abstract way, but to the people who make up the cities. Sodom didn't indulge in sexual immorality--the people in Sodom did. And those people, according to Jude, are experiencing eternal fire. Note the verb there is not past tense (they "underwent" eternal fire), but present tense (they are "undergoing" eternal fire). The context and the grammar argue against your position.

Your reference to 2 Peter 2:6 also doesn't help you in that "extinction" isn't in the Greek. Peter simply says they were condemned. The ESV unfortunately adds "to extinction", but it isn't there. See other translations to see how they handle it differently.

You also mentioned the birds being promised the flesh of "all men". Well, obviously "all" is limited in that it doesn't mean "all men of all time". It excludes believers as well. It appears clear to me that it is limited to those who are slain whose bodies lie in waste.

You neglected to comment on the nature of the Lake of Fire. Is there something in the text that would make you conclude the nature of the Lake of Fire is different depending on the person being sent there?

I would also ask you if you realize you're swimming against the tide of near unanimous consensus throughout history of the eternal nature of hell. Those who doubt it have been few and far between, and soundly refuted through the ages.

Tell you what... before we get into a lengthy debate on this issue, let's let this article series unfold and allow John MacArthur to make his case.

Thank you Pastor Macarthur, for standing in God's truth and exposing false teachers.

Joy, what do you think "unquenchable fire" means? If fire is unquenchable, why is it unquenchable? Why fire at all? What about "wailing and gnashing of teeth?" You are not studying your Bible, and if you are, you exegesis of the Scripture is not following what the whole Bible teaches. You cannot pick and choose what you want to believe. You have to take the whole of Scripture in context.

Greetings Pastor MacArthur, thank you for your work. You have been a tremendous blessing. Thank you for this article, I hope you don't mind that I repost this on my blog.

This man needs to be exposed and I thank you for your stand in doing so, in light of so much resistance.

Bless your submission and obedience to God's work.

Your fellow slave in Christ,

Paul

Mary Elizabeth Tyler:

Thank you for your kind remark :)

I thank God all the time for this website GTY, so many excellant saints with wonderful insights into God's word. I've learned alot from many of you.

Your sister in Christ,

Eileen

Regarding Sodom, the spirits of the people of Sodom are currently in Hades/Sheol which is not and eternal condition(Rev.20:13),so Jude 7 probably does not mean that they are currently in eternal fire. Other verses about the fire and brimstone that judged Sodom are in past tense.

Re Beast and FP: I know that my arguments are not strong enough to prove that the Beast and FP are spirit beings but the points are strong enough to show that their humanity is inconclusive. Even if you could show that they are conclusively human, you would only be proving that two humans will be tormented eternally. You must still extrapolate to apply their fate to all unbelievers. It is not good hermeneutics to base a major doctrine on an assumption.

Referring to the Beast and FP as "alive" does not necessitate that they are human. God is a spirit and he is referred to as being alive.

It is not distinctly human for someone to come up out of the Abyss and have frogs come out of his mouth.

The birds are promised the flesh of the men at the last battle(Rev 19:17-21)including all the men great and small, kings, captains, and mighty men. At the battle, the Beast and FP are captured and cast alive into the Lake of Fire. The birds gorge themselves on the flesh of everyone else, but not the Beast and FP. According to the promise, if the Beast and FP were men, the birds should have been given their flesh.

Here are some indications that the fire is capable of having varied effects:

-Eternal fires and unquenchable fires in the Bible can and do literally consume. Examples are in previous posts. The Lake of Fire is capable of destroying as evidenced by the fact that "Death" will be cast there and then Death will be no more. Since we have no explicit statement in the Revelation passage about whether the fire will consume the unbelievers or torment them, we have to look at the larger teaching of the Bible.

-Jesus said that God can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. The Lake of Fire is Gehenna. The word for "destroy" is frequently used to mean kill, and it is in parallel with another word that means to kill.

-Is 66:24 refers to this fire and says that there will be carcasses in it, not eternally tormented living humans.

-The phrase "Second Death" does not suggest that the author means a different kind of eternal life.

-God varies judgment according to culpability, something that He could not do if the fire does the same thing to everyone. By that reasoning an unbelieving child would receive the same torment as Satan based on the fact that the location is the same. This would contradict all of the scriptures that indicate variation in judgment.

Kathy, The Lake of Fire is eternal because it was “prepared for the devil and his angels” Mt 25:41. Wailing and gnashing are not eternal. "The wicked shall gnash with his teeth and melt away." Ps 112:10.

Thank you Dr. MacArthur for your diligent work in Discernment Ministry (as I have heard it called). It is sad to think that the church is so fragmented that there are so many false teachers out there. I praise God for John MacArthur's teachings that were instrumental in my understanding the nature of God and His saving grace early in my Christian walk. I long for a public forum to look at these issues in the example of the Council of Nicea, or the Synod of Dort, among many others, to root out these false teachers. Defendants that would include Bell, Osteen, Myers, Hinn, to name a few. Thank you John for your devotion to God's word and work.

Good morning.

When I was 12 or 13. I went to St. Pauls and my whole family was

there. We had a sub preacher and he start the sermon. He told us

that there is no hell. The whole church was shocked and knew the

man was wrong. We waited quietly until the pastor came back then

the pastor had to talk to him. And our pastor was sadden to hear

that and ask us to pray for him. Just a note of what happened

and that no hell thing that Rob is doing been going on since Adam

and Eve choose to disobey the Lord. Sad.

Joy writes in #38

Let me clarify that I believe that it could take a very long time for some people to experience justice-- but not an infinite amount of time.

But God is an infinite being, with infinite holiness.

Continuing,

On eternal fire: Eternal fire is capable of destroying its object (Isa 34:1: Jer 17:27;Jude 1:7;II Pet 2:6) The Lake of Fire is capable of destroying. Death is cast there and death will be no more.

Let's look at those passages:

Isaiah 34:1 (I think you mean vs. 2). This passage has nothing to do with hell. It's God's retributive justice against the enemies of Israel.

Jer. 17:27 The same is here. This speaks of retributive judgment, not eternal judgment.

Jude 1:7 This has more to do with hell. The text is rather clear, God judged Sodom and Gomorrah and specifically the inhabitants, and as Gabe pointed out, the tense of the word clearly states that this suffering is on-going.

2 Peter 2:6 Peter is saying the same thing as Jude.

One thing that is being missed by the Unitarians and their sympathizers is that eternal punishment is often contrasted with eternal life. If eternal punishment simply means extinction or annihilation as is argued by the Unitarians, then our eternal life falls into the same category. It too will come to an end.

As warm and fuzzy as the title is, it too is misleading. I cannot find any scriptural reference stating, “Love Wins.” God is love, but love is not god nor does love ever negate truth.

Fred, you are correct that those verses do not refer to the Lake of Fire. I used them to demonstrate that the eternal nature of a fire does not establish the eternal nature of the objects burned.

This verse about Sodom as a type of future judgment makes it clear that the figure refers to their past tense literal destruction: "On the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all-- so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed." Luke 17:29-30

The belief that God's infinite holiness makes man's sin infinite is derived from the doctrine of eternal torment so can't be used to support it. No scripture defines sin as infinite.

Since I have a few extra lines to use, here are some verses about the destruction of the wicked:

The wicked shall be silent in darkness.... The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; ... the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth. 1 Samuel 2:9-10

The wicked are like chaff which the wind drives away. Ps. 1:4 This and other verses contrasting the righteous and the wicked cannot refer to the brevity of this life otherwise it would apply to both the righteous and the wicked.

You will make them as a blazing oven when you appear. The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath, and fire will consume them. Ps 21:9

For they will wither quickly like the grass and fade like the green herb. Psalm 37:2

The wicked shall not be. Ps 37:10

The wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD...shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. Ps 37:20

Transgressors will be altogether destroyed. Ps 37:38

Let [the wicked] melt away as waters which run continually...let them be as cut in pieces. Ps 58:7

As a snail which melts, let them pass away. Ps 58:8

He shall take them away as a whirlwind. Ps 58:9

As smoke is driven away, so drive them away; as wax melts before the fire so let the wicked perish at the presence of God. Ps. 68:2

When the wicked spring up as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever. Psalm 92:7

The wicked shall... gnash with his teeth and melt away. Ps 112:10

As the whirlwind passes, so is the wicked no more. Prov. 10:25

The heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the ground and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner. Is 51:6

For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool. Is.51:8

Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud , and as the early dew that passes away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney. Hos 13:3

For behold the day comes that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble; and the day that comes shall burn them up says the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Mal 4:1

He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Matt 3:12

Joy writes,

Fred, you are correct that those verses do not refer to the Lake of Fire. I used them to demonstrate that the eternal nature of a fire does not establish the eternal nature of the objects burned.

But you really didn't demonstrate your thesis.

Continuing,

The belief that God's infinite holiness makes man's sin infinite is derived from the doctrine of eternal torment so can't be used to support it. No scripture defines sin as infinite.

But Scripture does define God as infinite, eternal. Our sin is against HIM and HIS eternal laws, which are bound to HIS infinite character. We sin against an infinite being, and thus our punishment comes from an infinite being against creatures who would never stop sinning against God unless God did something to the sinner to stop him.

From my perspective this annihilationist view of hell devalues God's holiness, His justice, and the seriousness of man's sin.

Instead of citing passages that really have no bearing on this discussion, I suggest explaining why "eternal life" doesn't end, if "eternal punishment" does according to your theology. See Matthew 25:46 for example.

Fred, I originally missed the meaning of your last paragraph but now that I see it I need to comment. When a government puts a man to death it is called capital punishment. Death is a punishment. If that death is never followed by resurrection the death is an eternal punishment. The first death is not everlasting because it is followed by resurrection. The second death is everlasting because it is not followed by resurrection. So yes both the punishment of the wicked and the eternal life of the wicked are equal in length.

The confusion with the phrase eternal punishment seems to be related to the fact that most punishments are conscious. But the punishment of eternal literal death is not conscious and is very consistent with the many passages that say that the wicked are destroyed and the wages of sin is death.

I am not a Unitarian. I graduated from an evangelical college with a major in Bible Theology. I believed in eternal conscious punishment until I heard it supported by a flawed argument and went looking for better support. I have spent hundreds of hours sincerely seeking for the intended meaning of scripture. I was surprised to discover that the Bible never says that the wicked suffer eternal pain and that if words like perish, destroy, and consume are read literally, a consistent picture of a measured and varied judgment followed by literal destruction results. The supports for the traditional doctrine are few, require assumptions, and produce the need to ignore or read figuratively dozens of verses that make plain sense when read literally. If men were in danger of eternal suffering, wouldn't it be reasonable expect the Bible to say it outright at least once?

My husband and myself attended marshill for 4 years and left appx. 6 years ago. Rob was starting down a slippery slope then and with the promting of the Holy Spirit I was realizing what he taught was more ear tickling and cutting edge feel good stuff. Oddly enough we now attend the church he came from named Calvary and a couple of weeks ago our preacher, without mentioning Robs name during the sermon preached a sermon on hell and its biblical truth. I fear for the souls of those who attend marshill and I pray for Rob Bell and Shane Hipps.But mostly I pray for the people who attend marshill to open their eyes to the lies that'll send them to the very hell Rob say's does'nt exsist.

One more thing. I am so very grateful for Grace To You. I love to listen online to Johns teaching. I thank God for his boldness to tell it like it is.

I can't even listen to this guy speak. I have to wonder if people like this have ever read the Bible. Thanks John, for simply telling it like it is.

Joy writes in #61,

Death is a punishment. If that death is never followed by resurrection the death is an eternal punishment. The first death is not everlasting because it is followed by resurrection. The second death is everlasting because it is not followed by resurrection. So yes both the punishment of the wicked and the eternal life of the wicked are equal in length.

Herein lies your mistake. You seem to think a bodily resurrection awaits only the righteous. Yet, the wicked will be raised in resurrected bodies just like the righteous. Note Jesus' words in John 5:28, 29,

"Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Note also Paul's words in Acts 24:15, "I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

Both of these passages reflect what Daniel the prophet wrote in Daniel 12:2.

All men will be raised in resurrection, fitted with bodies that can either withstand the presence of God in his majesty and glory as the righteous will receive, or fitted with a body to withstand God's justice and wrath. Both instances are eternal, which means "forever."

Continuing,

I am not a Unitarian. I graduated from an evangelical college with a major in Bible Theology.

That maybe the case, but you cite here classic Unitarian arguments for your position. It may be helpful for you to read up on where your beliefs originated.

Continuing,

I have spent hundreds of hours sincerely seeking for the intended meaning of scripture, etc., ...

And what sources did you use in your study? What sources did you read to counter your alleged findings?

@Rick White, comment #20 I believe Bell is referring to Mark 9:40 "for whoever is not against us is for us."

Joy sounds more of someone who believes in Annihilation rather than Universalism - so the question is more on eternal punishment vs instant (or time limited) total annihilation. Universalist believe that everyone is saved regardless of whether they accept Jesus or not.

Universalism is not taught in scripture - it is clear through scripture that in order to be saved, we must repent and believe...in Rob Bells book - Love wins (This section is in the open domain so not copyright infringement as far as I know) he begins by saying:

-----

First, I believe that Jesus's story is first and foremost about the love of God for every single one of us. It is a stunning, beautiful, expansive love, and it is for everybody, everywhere.

That's the story.

'For God so loved the world...'

That's why Jesus came.

That's his message.

That's where the life is found.

-----

Well, actually... that is not the story, Jesus didn't just come into the world because God loved the world, Jesus came into the world because the world was condemned because of mans disobedience (sin).. and since God is a Just and Righteous God, He will not be in unity with sin, so sin separated ALL MEN from God...Jesus came into the world to make a way back into reconciliation/unity with God because man could not do this himself, he showed us this by giving us the law which revealed how weak man was and how we could not even uphold the law... but since God really does loves us, he is the Word who became flesh to walk among us to overcome sin and take the punishment of our sin upon himself.. so that WHOEVER BELIEVES (believes being the keyword here) in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Many people want to think.. well, we wouldn't condemn people, so surely God won't either.. but to say that just tells us how much we lack when it comes to knowing God and understanding his Righteousness and Just Judgement.. fair enough, we may not understand, but it doesn't give us the right to create out own doctrines which fits into our own moral standards because we cannot understand 'how a loving God could be like that'.

We should also remember what Jesus said to the Jews in Jn 8:44–47

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

There is certainly a distinction between some who belong to God and some who do not.

Now I understand what the word Universalism is. Thanks.

I read in the scriptures says

Don't fear men who can kill the body for men can't kill the soul. Fear God who can kill both the body and the soul in hell.

The blog is saying that we must stand for the truth.

I agree!

Amen!

Nicky writes (#66):Universalist believe that everyone is saved regardless of whether they accept Jesus or not.

That is an incorrect (though common) assumption about universalism. I'd just like to point out that universalism is merely the belief that all will be saved. There are many variations of universalism, for instance evangelical universalists believe that all will eventually come to faith in Jesus -- that in fact, salvation is synonymous with reconciliation to God.

Nicky continues: Universalism is not taught in scripture - it is clear through scripture that in order to be saved, we must repent and believe

In light of the definition she is working from, I would agree. However, it is arguable that universalism in some form is indeed taught in scripture, one example being Col 1:19-20 "For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross."

Joy, on your view about punishment of the lost, what does the words, "worm will never die" mean. Christ says this phrase in several of his parables about punishment of the lost. Why does the worm not die but the person does? Did the worm do something wrong or is this poetic language saying the punishment will last forever?

In response to post #46,

Joy's argument is that the fire is capable of extinguishing something, not that it burns out, one. Two, wailing and gnashing of teeth... history lesson:

When Jesus is talking about Hell is this passage he is referring to:

See Wikipedia or anything on "Gehenna" (Valley of Hinnom)

The weeping probably refers to the babies that were burned alive as sacrifices to idol gods (2 Kings 23:10), and the gnashing of teeth the animals that fought for scraps of food there, as it was a trash dump.

It isn't fair to question if someone is even studying their Bible if you are in disagreement with them. I was reminded to take a look Ephesians 4:29,32, and 5:4 in my responses, I think that is good path for us all to take.

As for this blog post, it offers up nothing. All it does it call him a heretic, with references to nothing that has actually been said or written by Bell. If he wants to makes these conclusions, then I feel like he should do it after the argument is supported. I realize this is just the attention getter, to hook people in and keep them reading (much like the Love Wins trailer and publisher's note, funny similarities here), and I look forward to seeing what the points may be.

If I may, I would like to address some of the claims made in this blog, that I feel are unfair or unjustified now.

Bell is a fan of the hypothetical, he asks probing questions, doesn't answer them a fair portion of the time. He lives it open for discussion. That is part of the beauty of our faith, that it allows room for questions, even of God. Moses questions God as to whether he is the right choice for the job, Abraham argues with God about Sodom and Gomorrah. There is a lot more to this discussion than will appear here, and I hope that everybody takes into account all sources before making up their minds and calling a brother a heretic. That is a big deal.

I have never once seen Bell (and I take in lots of his work) question the authority or supremacy of Scripture, as JM proposes. That just is not factual.

Youtube: "Rob Bell Defends Himself and His Church Mars Hill pt.1"

He very clearly states he believes in the authority of the Scripture, says a form of the word "authority" many times. Then says something about the power of Christ and his resurrection and the salvation it brings. Pretty stark contrast from where this blog series seems to be heading.

I can see this part being confusing from his books and whatnot: "fallen humanity is through the atoning work of Christ, and the only instrument of justification is faith in Jesus Christ as He is revealed in the gospel."

Bell would break it down like this, he believes Jesus does this, but wants to believe his grace is bigger than we know. That he would hope it can reach people even who don't pray a sinner's prayer, maybe post-mortem. We should hope that as many people as possible are saved and in Heaven, Jesus does.

I look forward to seeing where this all goes.

#69, the word for hell in the previous verse is geennan, a reference again to the real Valley of Hinnom. This is a metaphorical statement, not a statement of fact about an otherwordly place of spiritual torment. Jesus is not directly commentating on what the traditional view of "hell" is.

#68 is spot on, and what Bell argues in the new book is that he wants to believe that all things (which in the Greek is literally "all things") will have the opportunity. He states that not everyone will/would accept it, that some people have chosen to live in metaphorical hell now, and would choose that later too, but that he hopes they would at least be given the opportunity. He also definitively states that he doesn't know the exact truths of what happens in the afterlife, and neither do the rest of us, for that matter. We are all guessing based the best evidence we all individually find in Scripture.

#64, but those verses don't mention torment for eternity, you added that.

#58, you instinctively have to know this is true, the idea that love wins. You could boil it down as simply as saying "God is Love", and in the end, we know that God will triumph over evil and the world, so God/Love wins. His idea behind it is simple, and true. Jesus came to the world and was perfect, and lived a perfect life. The world threw every kind of evil it could at him, mocked, scorned, beaten, tortured, persecuted, humiliated, executed, and he always responded with love. Even on the cross asked for their forgiveness. Jesus was killed, but he came back to life. The worst was thrown at him, he responded in love, and won. Love wins. It is always better to show love to someone than to attack them or fight back. Love is always the better route. Love wins. It doesn't expressly state that, but it is true regardless.

#52, just as I am, you are operating on the basis of opinion. If you want to talk Council at Nicea, if you go to the video I referenced in my other post, which is hopefully up now, you can click the link to see part 3, where he actually talks in depth about the creed they came up with, he is all about it. You are calling for open discussion, but you have already condemned him without any yet. That's not fair. I will agree in that I am not a fan of Hinn, Myers, or Osteen, that is just an aside, off the point.

I really am curious as to how many of the commenters, thus far, have read Love Wins, and what their commentaries on what he actually said in the book are?

@Sonia #68

[quote]Nicky writes (#66):Universalist believe that everyone is saved regardless of whether they accept Jesus or not.

That is an incorrect (though common) assumption about universalism. I'd just like to point out that universalism is merely the belief that all will be saved[/quote]

I see a bit of contradiction here... you want to say that Universalist believe that all 'will' be saved... yet a Universalist will tell people that they 'are' saved? In any case, either way, neither are true since scripture clearly tells us that we have to repent and believe, and there are just so many examples in scripture where we are warned about rejecting truth and Jesus.

[quote]Nicky continues: Universalism is not taught in scripture - it is clear through scripture that in order to be saved, we must repent and believe

In light of the definition she is working from, I would agree. However, it is arguable that universalism in some form is indeed taught in scripture, one example being Col 1:19-20[/quote]

Well, this depends on whether you have an understanding on what this passage is talking about. If ALL things were going to be reconciled to God, then you would have to include, Satan, the false prophet, the beast, all the demons etc etc... now, since we know this isn't going to happen, then we cannot safely assume that this passage means that ALL things WILL BE reconciled to God nor can we realistically rely on this passage to support Universalism.

#70 Kyle says,

I have never once seen Bell (and I take in lots of his work) question the authority or supremacy of Scripture, as JM proposes. That just is not factual.

Kyle- I am sure that GTY will show that Bell has indeed stated that the authoruty of the scripture is not the absolute authority. His book Velvit Elvis is full of false teachings, one of them being that the Bible is not all we need. He blatantly states that scripture alone being our guide sounds nice but is not true. I would provide some actual quotes from the book but I don't want to break any laws but I am sure with some foot work you can track the quotes down on the internet. I have seen Bell in recent interviews contradict other things he says in his writings. Like I said, I am confident that GTY will provide the quotes and links to show what Bell believes and teaches, but from what I have read from Bell he has put some things in writing that are false and heretical.

I am looking forward to this series, and am so grateful to Dr. MacArthur and the Grace to You staff for their diligent efforts in bringing this information to us! Another watchful shepherd is Dr. Al Mohler, who did a fantastic article on his blog titled "We Have Seen All This Before: Rob Bell and the (Re)Emergence of Liberal Theology". Praise God for pastors who rightly divide the Word and guard the sheep!