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Monday, October 17, 2011 | Comments (34)

I’d imagine most of us on the conservative end of evangelicalism—whether you’re part of the YRR crowd or the OBR (Old, Boring, Reformed) crowd—we understand the wrongheadedness of church growth methodology. It’s easy to see how men like the early pioneers of church growth (Donald McGavran, C. Peter Wagner, Robert Schuller) and their most famous disciples (Bill Hybels, Rick Warren, Joel Osteen) got it wrong.

The theology of the Bible teaches us God is absolutely sovereign over salvation; He alone predestines, calls justifies, and glorifies fallen sinners who are dead in trespasses and sin. Christ is the sovereign head of the church who receives the elect bride from His Father; He alone directs, equips, and grows the church according to the will of the Father. The Holy Spirit is the executor of the Father’s will, drawing the elect to Jesus Christ; He alone regenerates the sinner, seals the elect, and empowers the church for growth and service.

We don’t deny the human element, even as we affirm monergism and divine initiative. God uses means and we’re part of the means He uses to do His work, right? As Paul said, “I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth.” And it’s important to see that the apostolic pattern of planting and watering were not according to a pragmatic, “the end justifies the means” approach. Paul, Apollos, and every other exemplary minister of the apostolic age did ministry according to the means God prescribed (i.e., Ephesians 4:11-16) and not according to what seemed reasonable to the culture (i.e., 1 Corinthians 2:1-5).

The end goal, as well as the means employed to achieve that end, are important to God. So, when we use pragmatic-oriented church growth principles to plant and water, we go against the grain, planting and watering according to the pattern of the flesh rather than the power of the Spirit. That’s wrong. We, along with Paul, want the faith of those who hear us to rest, not “in the wisdom of men but in the power of God” (1 Corinthians 2:5).

So, here’s my concern: Are we truly squeaky-clean? Are we free from the charge of pragmatism? Do we condemn in our preaching what we practice in our ministries?

At times, I can imagine the church growth practitioners with wry smiles on their faces. They listen to us condemn the methodologies they’ve openly embraced, while using them to grow our churches and ministries. Sure, there’s a difference in degree, but that only makes our public denouncements all the more hypocritical. After all, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

When those of us who claim to be Reformed, or Calvinists, or faithful adherents to the Doctrines of Grace (or whatever the most accurate title happens to be for your brand of biblical fidelity), when we eschew in our preaching and teaching what we practice in our ministries, we unwittingly become one of the strongest arguments in support of evangelical pragmatism.

So, just to help you think it through, to provoke you a wee bit, here’s a quick Top 10 list you can use to evaluate yourself and your ministry for signs of pragmatism.

  1. If you see ecclesiology as a subset of missiology, you might be a pragmatist.

  2. If you believe evangelism rather than edification is the purpose of the church, you might be a pragmatist.

  3. If you are trying to figure out what works in evangelism and church growth, and you’re using resources less than 100 years old to answer the question, you might be a pragmatist.

  4. If you turn to sociology and psychology rather than theology to help you understand human response, you might be a pragmatist.

  5. If you think the feel of your church, the music you play, and what you wear makes it more/less likely for an unbeliever to believe the gospel, you might be a pragmatist.

  6. If you are often counting your numbers (e.g., number of visitors, baptisms, and “decisions for Christ,” visitors to your website, sermon downloads, or any other countable sign of growth), you might be a pragmatist.

  7. If you feel the need to quote your numbers to establish your credibility, you might be a pragmatist.

  8. If you are more concerned with the opinions and comfort-level of unbelievers who visit your church than you are with the opinions of believers in your church, you might be a pragmatist.

  9. If your church youth program is designed to accommodate and entertain young people rather than teach and confront them, you might be a pragmatist.

  10. If the young set the tone and determine the culture of the church, you might be a pragmatist.

I know that’s a short, somewhat simplistic, and woefully incomplete list, but hey, it’s a start. If any of those points are true of you or your church, you might need to repent. Start by confessing your sin of relying on the flesh and using fleshly methods, and study the Scripture to set a positive course for your ministry.

  • Study biblical anthropology so you understand the truth about the human condition and human response (Romans 1:18–3:18; Ephesians 2:1-3).

  • Study the true purpose of the church and the pattern of church growth as laid out in Scripture (Ephesians 4:7-16; 1 Timothy 3:1-16).

  • Study the ways and means of God until you see how opposite they are of the ways and means of man (1 Corinthians 1:18–2:5; James 3:13-18).

Learn to live by faith and not by sight; that is to say, stop counting! God’s work is largely invisible, growth takes take time, and wisdom is generally not recognized by her contemporaries, but by all her children (Luke 7:35).

Travis Allen
Director of Internet Ministry


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#1  Posted by Gabriel Powell (GTY Admin)  |  Monday, October 17, 2011 at 8:38 PM

Thanks for the encouragement, Travis. In our culture, those of us seeking to faithfully shepherd small churches need a constant reminder of these things.

#2  Posted by Pam Eckler  |  Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 4:23 AM

thanks for the word of advice john, just left a church that the pastor was pragmatic---even though he is 66yrs old, he felt the need to change the whole church around to draw the young--i guess the Spirit is not enough today

#4  Posted by Alan Sherban  |  Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 5:41 AM

These thoughts aren't just for the churches we generally consider "seeker". I remember observing the exact same things in fundamentalist circles - all 10 points, actually. I'm thankful for this clear assessment, sir.

#5  Posted by Raymond Grignon  |  Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 7:09 AM

Excellent article! I did have one small point of variance and this may simply be a request for clarity. To be up front, I believe the purpose of the church, yea all things, is ultimately to glorify God. In your article you said, "If you believe evangelism rather than edification is the purpose of the church, you might be a pragmatist." Wouldn't both evangelism and edification be aspects of the purpose of the church seeing that both are necessary to "make disciples" (μαθητεύω/mathēteuō)?

I understand that when we use the word church, we may be referring to the church general (children of God) and the assembly specific (what we refer to as "going to church").

With that difference in mind, I WOULD NOT agree if someone espoused to a belief that the purpose of the church general wasn't evangelism. However, I WOULD agree if you are trying to say that the purpose of the assembly IS NOT evangelism. The assembly or the meeting of believers is FOR believers, not unbelievers. Though if unbelievers come, they should be able to profit (1 Cor. 14:23).

Anyways, I hope my question is clear. Thank you for such a thoughtful article. I simply think we should be careful with our wording, because evangelism was most definitely the focus of our Lord (Luke 19:10). It should be our focus as well. Perhaps this is on my mind because I just recently listened to Pastor MacArthur's messages on Matthew 28:16-20, "Making Disciples of all Nations." In those messages, he issues a strong challenge to the church to remember its purpose to "make disciples" both through evangelism, baptism, and perpetual teaching. Well, thank you and have a great day!

Respectfully in Christ - Your Student,

Ray Grignon

#6  Posted by Frank Sweeney  |  Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 7:49 AM

You might add, "If you have programs like "Resolved" and then preach against pragmatism, you might be hypocritical.

#7  Posted by John Fast  |  Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 8:04 AM

Travis, thanks for the encouraging word. Having just begun a church plant in the Bible-belt, the temptation to run ahead of God is ever present. Psalm 127:1 is constantly before me. Pragmatism might draw a crowd but it won't build a church.

#8  Posted by Tommy Clayton  |  Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 8:42 AM


Have you attended a Resolved conference? If so, which number(s) on the "You might be a pragmatist" list do you think it violates? Explain yourself.

#9  Posted by Robin Schumacher  |  Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 9:48 AM

Good article, much appreciated. I go to a very large church with 3 campuses (over 20,000 attendees). This week was our yearly call for baptisms and over 600 came forward and were baptized. Very moving for sure, but I couldn't help but wonder how many were true conversions. I'd like to see a follow up article to this on the true signs of God blessing a church/individual's effort, etc.

#10  Posted by Kurt Hutchison  |  Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 10:37 AM

#2 got me, maybe some clarification on that one might make a good post some time.

#11  Posted by Mark A Smith  |  Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 11:24 AM

In reference to point 5, Music. I agree music doesn't lead the salvation. The gospel and the Holy Spirit do that.

So, if you DON'T sing hymns, but instead sing contemporary songs, are you a pragmatist?

#12  Posted by Fred Butler  |  Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 12:03 PM

Kurt, #10

probably what is in mind is the typical evangelistic, topical message that is taught in many churches every Sunday. I think a lot of readers know what I mean. The message on Sunday morning may be taken from Judges 4, have three points, and a thoughtful illustration with a plea to walk the aisle. Sunday evening is a message from Colossians with three points, a thoughtful illustration, and another plea to walk the aisle. So every Sunday is basically the preacher "evangelizing" Christians to get saved. His duty should be to build up the saints, not evangelize them. They are already evangelized. Now they need to know the Scripture.

#13  Posted by Cassandra Hale  |  Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 12:30 PM

I completely agree with your assessment of a Pragmatist, but how in the world do we escape this today? I cannot find one Bible-believing/teaching church in our area that isn't focused on growth by numbers. Everywhere we go, there is some type of new something-or-other to draw more people. It seems hopeless. I belong to a conservative Lutheran Church that is very missional (LCMS) and Scripturally focused, but it's there as well. I can think of one church only in our area that isn't Pragmatic, but they are extremely legalistic (Bible burners). Where are believers today supposed to turn?

#14  Posted by Cassandra Hale  |  Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 12:32 PM

I also wanted to state, for the record, that I'm only 33, so I'm part of this "culture" that supposedly needs more entertainment, but I'm completely repulsed by it. My children, ages ranging from 12-3, have even voiced discomfirt with extremely entertaining church styles.

#15  Posted by Tommy Clayton  |  Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 1:54 PM

Cansandra # 13

You asked some very good questions when you wrote: I completely agree with your assessment of a Pragmatist, but how in the world do we escape this today? …Where are believers today supposed to turn?

In the very near future, we plan to devote an entire post addressing that very question. We’ll approach it from the angle of “How can I effect change within my church as a non-leader?”, and follow up with an article discussing when, and how to leave your church.

I trust that resonates with you, and I hope you stick around to interact. Thanks for your transparency.

In the mean time, I’ll take a shot at answering your question. I think Travis ended his article with some much needed biblical advice when he called for self-examination and repentance. Not all the blame can be laid at the feet of church leaders. We all bear some responsibility for the state and condition of the church. Several of the points in his list cut me to the heart, and I abhor pragmatism. I needed this article.

#16  Posted by Mark A Smith  |  Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 2:24 PM

Perhaps a little explanation from me is in order...

I am the pastor of a church that has just recently been founded. We aren't a church that has been around for years. I am 38, married for 13 years with 2 kids. I have no formal "seminary" education, but I do have a doctorate (in physics, not much help there;-) ) and undergraduate education in theology/ministry.

Since we are new, NO established Christians really pay attention to us. It is not uncommon on Sunday/Wednesday for people to drive up, see we are a store-front church, and drive sad. No we don't have an organ and stained glass windows. Sorry. People come once and say, "well, our kids need a youth group and you don't have one". (BTW, we do have a youth group. It just has 2 youths..not 50)We never see them again...

So, the only shot we have to continue the call of God for this local body is to reach the "unreached". They are the only ones listening. How can I do that in a manner that is Biblical, yet keeps the "unsaved" or "barely saved" around long enough to repent and be converted?

I am committed to expository preaching, but that isn't quite right yet with a very small, transitory "group" that is meeting at present. So, I do things like more contemporary music, take the suit jacket off, etc, to survive reaching the group that will hear the gospel from me at present! If that is pragmatism, them so label me...

#17  Posted by Elizabeth Mullet  |  Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 3:27 PM

It seems like a better way to attract unbelievers to your church would be aggressive personal evangelism.

#18  Posted by Dan Wilson  |  Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 4:54 PM

Well spoken , Travis..

Best to be not modern style and entertaining.

Churches are to teach as Jesus taught, as well preaching the Gospel with going to the left or to the right.

To Pastors, stand true to God and his Word. And pray at all times. Read about Paul, it might encourage you. God bless.

#19  Posted by Mark A Smith  |  Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 6:40 PM

#17---better than what? What are you refering to as being not right? I do "aggressive" personal evangelism.

#20  Posted by Tommy Clayton  |  Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 9:57 PM

Mark Smith #16

Thanks for the additional explanation Mark. I hope you’ll permit me to respond to your comment.

I don’t begrudge your not having some kind of official seminary training. Neither do I frown upon the fact that your church is young (you used the phrase “just recently founded”). Your age wouldn’t necessarily be a problem either. Many Bible scholars claim Timothy would have been in his mid-thirties when Paul encouraged him with these words, “Let no one look down on your youthfulness” (1 Tim. 4:12). It was the next part of your comment with which I took issue. You said:

Since we are new, NO established Christians really pay attention to us...So, the only shot we have to continue the call of God for this local body is to reach the "unreached". They are the only ones listening. How can I do that in a manner that is Biblical, yet keeps the "unsaved" or "barely saved" around long enough to repent and be converted?

I am committed to expository preaching, but that isn't quite right yet with a very small, transitory "group" that is meeting at present. So, I do things like more contemporary music, take the suit jacket off, etc, to survive reaching the group that will hear the gospel from me at present! If that is pragmatism, them so label me...

Mark, with all due respect, “reaching the unreached” shouldn’t be the primary goal of your corporate gatherings. Your members should be committed to personal evangelism—reaching the lost in their neighborhoods, jobs, schools, and even in their homes. And you should be committed to equipping them for that work every time you gather together. Paul made that clear: “Preach the Word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction” (2 Tim. 4:2).

John MacArthur repeats a formula to help his congregation remember their personal responsibility—and his. He says, “We gather to edify and scatter to evangelize.” Exactly right.

I don’t see any biblical violation with your losing the suit jacket & tie or dragging some drums on stage for praise music. Those don’t represent any official kind of compromise, but throwing expository preaching out the window does. It will retard the growth of your flock and kill evangelism faster than anything. (To be clear, by “expository preaching,” I mean authoritative preaching flowing from a sound exegesis of Scripture that is faithful to the meaning of the text).

I think a helpful exercise for you would be to revisit your understanding of ecclesiology: The doctrine of the church. What is the nature, purpose, and calling of the church, and what is your primary responsibility as a pastor? I remember one seminary professor telling our class one of the most helpful studies for a new pastor is to read what Paul said to Timothy and Titus and compare/contrast his pastoral exhortations to our own ministerial activities.

Blessings to you, brother.

#21  Posted by Steve Nuhn  |  Wednesday, October 19, 2011 at 12:35 AM


Let's set clothes and music style aside for just a minute.  I have some comments I'd like to make that I believe will illustrate the concerns around your position.

First, let me clarify I'm not part of the GTY staff and these comments come from a situation at my own church but, I trust Pastor MacArthur and the GTY staff as a great resource for rightly dividing the word of God and hope to hear their thoughts on this as well.  

I recently attended a witnessing training group at my church in preparation for an upcoming event we host.  

A little background, my church hosts a ministry event around Halloween each year and we have the opportunity to share the gospel with a lot of people you would classify as the unchurched.  I struggle with the event itself, as it appeals to emotion more than anything but, here the illustration as it relates to this topic.

The leader of the training group handed out a paper titled "Do's and don'ts of a three minute testimony".  He then asked us to write out our testimony.  I've included the list below for discussion...

#22  Posted by Steve Nuhn  |  Wednesday, October 19, 2011 at 12:36 AM


1. Ask the Lord to give wisdom and guidance as you write (James 1:5,6)

2. Emphasize life AFTER you received Christ, if you became a Christian as a child.

3. Begin with an interesting, attention-getting sentence and make a good conclusion.  Include relevant, thought-provoking facts and experiences.

4. Express yourself in such a way that others can relate with you.

5. Give enough details to arouse interest.

6. Use at least one--but no more than two, Scripture verses.

7. Edit carefully and rewrite after it has been critiqued by others.

8. Remember, your testimony is meant to be a talk, not good reading material.

9. Focus only on the person you are talking with.


1. Use Christian jargon like: saved, convicted, converted, born-again.  These phrases do not communicate to the average non-Christian.  They are precious to us but often misunderstood and consequently ridiculed.

2. Be too wordy, or beat around the bush.

3. Speak in glittering generalities.  Avoid words like wonderful, glorious...

4. Mention church denominations...especially in a derogatory way.

5. Speak critically or negatively about any other individual or group.

6. Give the impression that the Christian life is a "bed of roses".

7. Brag about past life or life now.

Perhaps you were as shocked as I was, or maybe not...  It appears that the list above and your comments are focused on two things, the unsaved's ability to come and your ability to attract them and keep them.  

Scripture say that the GOPSEL is the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16).

What is the gospel?  Jesus Christ and Him crucified (1 Corinthians 2:2).

What is NOT the gospel?  The wisdom of men (1 Corinthians 2:5).

So what do you do when they're not interested?  Preach it anyway (2 Timothy 4:2-5).

Then what?  Go to sleep! Pastor MacArthur explains this very well in this sermon: Gods Sovereignty, the Gospel, and Sleeping Well. GTY128

Great topic Travis ...looking forward to more!

#23  Posted by Bob Woods  |  Wednesday, October 19, 2011 at 9:04 AM

What is "YRR" ?

Thank you & GOD BLESS you.

JOHN 14:6

#24  Posted by Tommy Clayton  |  Wednesday, October 19, 2011 at 9:12 AM


YRR stands for "Young, Restless, and Reformed." It's a theological movement among young people with many ranges. I'd say Mark Driscoll represents one way of thinking within that movement, while Tim Challies represent the other. Look through the GTY blog archive and you'll find more help on understanding that movement and its implications.

#25  Posted by Andy Devine  |  Wednesday, October 19, 2011 at 11:23 AM

Are there any good solid biblical resources that would be a good place to help give a good biblical balance unlike many of the other resources I have read on the "mission" of the church? Most equate it to social or justice ministries of such...anyways, any direction to some solid reads would be much appreciated. :)

Great blogg Travis by the way! :)

#26  Posted by Andy Devine  |  Wednesday, October 19, 2011 at 11:46 AM

Not sure if my last post was received, but I am wondering if there is a brief good list of GOOD solid biblical resources on defining a biblical understanding of what the mission of the church is? Everything I am reading is missional material right now, and most of it equates it to the form of social justice and good deeds mentality...although some is better than those they still, I feel, seem to miss the biblical mark. Thanks!

#27  Posted by Dan Wilson  |  Wednesday, October 19, 2011 at 3:37 PM

Thumbs up, #22. Amen.

#28  Posted by Myriam Telus  |  Wednesday, October 19, 2011 at 4:55 PM

Thanks for this blog. I'm not a minister of a church, but I've been in church all my life. Just want to mention that all of the blogs/ sermons/ etc on gty are so simple and clearly from the bible that it just confuses me sometimes because my family has been going to the "pragmatic" churches for so long and we are currently in one... I guess I get confused because I feel guilty for questioning the way my pastor and leader run the church... any comments?

#29  Posted by Raymond Grignon  |  Wednesday, October 19, 2011 at 5:21 PM

I made one comment early in this post and I am uncertain if it was ever responded to, but since I made one post I have been made aware of the rest via email. With all that I read in mind, I want to simply give everyone on this blog a word of encouragement. My word of encouragement is this: encourage your pastors and spiritual leaders. Be prone to appreciate someone who stands for something as opposed to finding what they may or may not stand for as strongly. I am reminded of Paul's words in Philippians about those whose motives were out of sorts, yet they still preached the gospel.

Philippians 1:

16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:

17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.

18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

Now, I don't know what you take away from this - but I think Paul just had an appreciative spirit of anyone naming Christ. I want to emulate that and I would encourage others to do so as well. I am not advising an abandonement of discernment, just a gracious spirit.


Ray Grignon

#30  Posted by Travis Allen  |  Wednesday, October 19, 2011 at 8:11 PM

Greetings Ray:

Thanks for your question and comments. You asked for clarification about the purpose of the church, saying it is the glory of God (#5). The context of my post is the corporate church gathering. Tommy quoted John MacArthur as saying, “We gather to edify and scatter to evangelize.”

I agree with that. Evangelism is most often what we do as individual Christians; and the purpose of the corporate assembly is to edify and equip the saints for the work of ministry (Eph. 4:12).

I appreciate your word of encouragement to the readers of this blog (#29). The post itself calls for self-examination, so I agree that we all need to have a gracious spirit; and we definitely need to encourage faithful (not perfect) pastors and Christian leaders.

But Paul's rejoicing in Phil. 1:18 is not in "anyone naming Christ," but "that Christ is that I rejoice." Paul did not rejoice in rivalry and selfish ambition, and did not commend it; in fact, he rebuked that spirit in 1 Cor. 1.

Likewise, it's important that we know the gospel well enough to recognize it when it's preached, and rejoice in it. It's also important that we develop the discernment to tell the difference between ministers who preach Christ out of good and evil motives, and follow those who are under-shepherds after the example of their Lord and the pattern of apostolic ministry (1 Thes. 2:1-12).

Thanks again for your comments.


#31  Posted by Kenneth Lang  |  Wednesday, October 19, 2011 at 8:57 PM

Thank you, whom ever is responsible for screening out my post on Tuesday October 18 at about 8:am. I'm still a bit young in the Lord. The main point of my comment was that I believe that pragmatism hurts everyone it touches. Thank's again for "looking out" for me.

#32  Posted by Vanna Bell  |  Wednesday, October 19, 2011 at 11:44 PM

Thanks Travis!!! It seems the impact of Pragmatism is international. In Taiwan, the books (or video) of Bill Hybels, Rick Warren and Joel Osteen are highly recommended by a lot of church leaders since they sound positive and teach churches how to grow overnight.

And you know, tons of people actually buy the idea and believe if they did such things, life would be wonderful and church itself would multiply rapidly, sadly to say. It seems that "number" is all that matters.

#33  Posted by Travis Allen  |  Thursday, October 20, 2011 at 12:48 PM


I completely agree. It's sad to see church growth methodologies overtaking the evangelical churches in other countries. Would that the best, not the worst, of evangelicalism would set the tone for the churches internationally, right? I guess they need to learn, just as we do, how to remain faithful to God's Word, to learn to walk daily by faith, and not by sight.

Thanks for your comment.


#34  Posted by Tommy Clayton  |  Thursday, October 20, 2011 at 1:22 PM

Andy Devine # 16

Absolutely, there is a good, biblical resource available. I'd start with John MacArthur's book The Master's Plan for the Church. It's available in softcover on the GTY website for $13. Happy reading!

#35  Posted by Carol Gayheart  |  Friday, October 21, 2011 at 6:26 AM

I can’t yell AMEN! loud enough! To quote John Fast #7 “Pragmatism might draw a crowd but it won’t build a church.” And to quote Fred Butler #12 “So every Sunday is basically the preacher “evangelizing” Christians to get saved. His duty should be to build up the saints, not evangelize them. They are already evangelized. Now they need to know the Scripture.”


This points out the need for “Christian” Growth as opposed to “Church” Growth! For the last 10 years I’ve attended 3 different churches and I haven’t “wanted” to invite any unbelievers to these churches because the unbeliever doesn’t have the discernment to weed out the “entertainment” factors presented from the pulpit or the “music worship” that a mature believer can, & thus I felt I would be leading them astray to a “false Christianity” rather than leading them to Christ. So instead, I seek to “live” a Christian example and evangelize through my life, because that’s really is how people “see” Christ. But where do “I” go to be fed? If all the church does is evangelize unbelievers, then where do the believers go? Pragmatism’s focus is on the unbelievers, and the church and its members should be focused on God! When unbelievers “witness” Christ through us, & the Holy Spirit works in their heart, they will be truly moved. I keep asking "Why is it called a Worship Service" when so little "worship" is taking place?

Travis, you nailed this one!