Questions and Answers, Part 15
Selected Scriptures
Tonight we are going to have just a little fellowship time here with some question and answers. We've been doing this now for all the time that I've been at Grace Church. In fact, we used to do it on Sunday nights and we just had a great time. And then we got so many people, we couldn't cover everybody so we do it on Wednesdays from time to time. And it's an especially great time for those of you who have some questions to fire away. I'll do the best I can in answering them. The idea is not Stump the Pastor; the idea is (laughter)...that's easy to do...but to just ask whatever question you might have and we'll give it a shot and do the best we can on maybe a Bible question, a question related to the church or the ministry or something practical that's just been bugging you. And whatever it is, we'll fire away.
Now, we put some mikes in the aisles, but if you feel somewhat intimidated about getting out into the aisle and asking your question, just have somebody on the end reach and pass the mike down to you and that'll work just as well. But if you can, step out into the aisle and speak into the microphone and we'll just start whenever you're ready. That's your cue, so if you want to go directly to a microphone, do that.
Yeah? Right there in the middle would be great.
QUESTIONER: Okay, I hope you'll excuse this question being phrased in the first person. However, I belong to a church denomination that practices infant baptism, as does all my family. I'm in question regarding my status spiritually. It appears that it would be necessary for me to leave my family church, causing a lot of anxiety, and actually join another denomination in order to fulfill what I feel is obedience. My family and our family pastor argues this point, sometimes very convincingly, that this move really isn't necessary. Your comments and opinions would be appreciated.
JOHN: Well, that's a very important question. What you're basically saying is that because you have a conviction that infant baptism is not the biblical mode, you feel some pressure to leave because your church teaches that it is. Right? Two questions are there. The first question is what about infant baptism. The second question is what about identifying with a church that has a theology maybe a little different than your own.
The first question relative to infant baptism...I believe, obviously, because we don't baptize infants, it reflects what we believe. But I believe that the New Testament is extremely clear on the fact that we are to express our faith in Christ and then be baptized. There is no data, and I've tried to find it and tried to study it, but there is no New Testament indication of infant baptism. The obscure passage that is used by what are called pedobaptists, those who baptize babies...but the obscure passage is that the Philippian jailer and his household were baptized. But you certainly cannot take the word "household" and make it mean his infant children. The word "household" is broad enough to include his servants and would encompass all of those who believed following in his own faith. So that's really the only stretching conclusion they can come to. The issue of infant baptism is a broader issue. It's not a textual issue, because there are no texts that indicate it. It is a theological issue and the substance of the theology is this, that in the Old Testament, Israel was God's covenant people. Right? And the sign of the covenant was what?...circumcision or the removal of the male foreskin on an infant at the eighth day after birth. Now, that was an outward sign of the covenant. Now, what is known as "covenant theology" teaches that the church is the new Israel. All right. We have replaced Israel. God has set Israel aside. He is through with Israel. The church is the new Israel. They teach, then, that there needs to be a covenant sign and so carrying the circumcision concept into the new era of the New Testament, infant baptism then becomes their theological equivalent to circumcision. That's essentially the theological justification for infant baptism. It is not a textual one because there are no verses that indicate it.
Now, the basic assumption then is that we are the Israel of God. I don't know of any group who baptizes infants who believes that the church is distinct from Israel. You understand what I'm saying? If you believe that the church becomes Israel, then there's no more future for Israel. They're done with. For example, John Stott, who would teach this and is a very fine man of God...his works and his writings have been just tremendous...but John Stott was asked in Switzerland recently the significance...what is the significance of the rise of the nation of Israel in our day, biblically. He said it has no significance at all. That was his answer because in his system Israel has no significance anymore. The church has become Israel. The teaching is that when Israel set aside its belief in Messiah and when they called for the death of their Messiah, the covenant was removed from them and the church was postulated in their place and we are the new Israel of God and that Jews can be saved, of course, today by entering into the church. But there will be no restoration of Israel and the ultimate end of things is what is known as amillennialism, no kingdom, because there's no Israel to have a kingdom. So, all of the promises to Israel are fulfilled spiritually in the church.
So, the reason I point that out is because it isn't just the issue of baptizing infants that is the issue theologically. It is a much bigger issue. Infant baptism, then, encompasses covenant theology. It encompasses an amillennial viewpoint. In other words, it gives you real fits when you get to the book of Daniel or the book of Isaiah or Revelation. You just don't know what to do with those things.
Dr. Feinberg, when we were in Israel, in Jerusalem one time, there was a guy who gave a speech and David Ben-Gurion was there and Teddy Kollek, the mayor of Jerusalem. Ben-Gurion was the prime minister of the country at the time. And this fellow got up and said that the church was the new Israel and there was no more prophetic place for Israel as a nation, as a constituted nation. And Dr. Feinberg got up after that and said, "I cannot come, in good faith, to this place and tell you that you get all the curses and we get all the blessings," because that's what the covenantal position ultimately comes to. Israel got all the curses and all the blessings are transferred spiritually to us. And he was not willing to make that the message of the moment to Israel.
And so I would say this. I would say that if it's only an issue of infant baptism, maybe that is not a big enough issue to make a change. But if you're talking about the substance of an entire theological framework which you do not feel comfortable with...I believe one of the reasons God has given us alternatives in this era...it's interesting to me that as the church as moved in history, it has constantly refined its theology. Right? We have more books now than we've ever had. Sure. And all the time we are refining and refining and refining our theology. And the Lord knows that as that gets refined through the years of the church, people will get down to finer points in their theology. And it seems to me that the Lord has even given us the opportunity to identify with as many...there's so many places, right, where you can identify on those fine points and have a fullness of fellowship and feel like you're really not fighting against something.
As to the personal answer to that question, I really don't know what God would have someone do. I think that's very subjective. If I was in that situation and felt I could make a contribution to it and God wanted me there, I'd stay. If I felt that He wanted me, down in my heart to go, I'd go. And I guess I would have to feel this way about it. If I was there as a learner and that's not what I wanted to learn, I'd probably want to take advantage of what I wanted to learn somewhere else. If I was there as a teacher and they were willing to allow me the privilege of input, I think I'd stay at least to see how they responded to try to balance out their viewpoint.
That's a very difficult question and I'll tell you, one of the things that concerns me is we are concerned, you know, when people come here from other churches that other churches don't get angry with us. But when you do teach a definitive theology and people want to identify with that as they see the truth of the Word of God, that's part of the fact. That's what happens. So I don't know the individual issue in each case and I guess I'd have to say, if there's any way possible that you sense God leading you to stay, then stay. That's very subjective but I don't know any other way to say it. Especially if they believe in the authority of the Word of God and the deity of Jesus Christ and all of those things, you know.
Anybody else have a question, just feel free. Yes, right over here.
QUESTIONER: How'd the different colored people come in the world?
JOHN: How do different colored people come into the world? Because they have different colored moms and dads (laughter).
Let me tell you. That's a very good question. It's the old question of...well, I won't get into that. Anyway, basically, you go back in your Bible to the 9th chapter of Genesis and you will find in that chapter that God determined certain features for the three sons of Noah. He had three sons. Their names were, what?...Shem, Ham and Japheth. Shem formed the Semitic people...Shem, Semite. That's where Semite comes from. The Semitics are Arabs, Jewish people. The whole of the human race flows out of those three men. Right? Because after the flood, that's it...Noah's family.
Ham was a servile people and most historical sociologists and anthropologists believe that Ham gave birth to the Phoenician people, the people who occupied the ships and so forth in the Mediterranean area.
"Japheth," it says, "shall enlarge" and most anthropologists believe that Japhethites moved to the European continent and became the colonizers. "Japheth shall enlarge" was the prophecy.
Ham became the servile people and Shem became the oriental people...the Jewish, the Arab people and then whatever may have gone from there east. Ham seems to have gone south and Japheth seems to have gone west.
Now, through, I believe, the direct act of God, God distinguished between those people. A couple of chapters later you come to Genesis, chapter 11 and what happens there?...the Tower of Babel. And God scattered all those nations, scattered all those people. And I believe, in scattering them, He developed, by His own supernatural, providential will, distinctive characteristics of those people to identify them uniquely to their own areas and their own culture. In other words, God was trying to eliminate amalgamation and make them distinct. And I think there's some adaptation, isn't there?...darker skinned people living in areas where the sun was more severe. I don't think that's a process of evolution; I think that was a supernatural act on God's part.
So the answer to your question is, God made the races the way they are. And God put them in certain places of the world and adapted them to that in a distinction. So I think it's just a divine act by God. Now, that is not to say that God wants everybody to make sure they stay in their own race. I think when you come to the New Testament, it's very clear that there's neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free, male or female. Right? We're all one in Christ. Certainly among Christians there is a oneness. Okay?
Ed?
ED: I've heard a number of testimonies, quite a number of testimonies over the last year and a half about the benefits and the blessings that are coming out of the studies of the sabbatical year of the Jewish and how it should be practiced today and even so much that people who have had a number of years of seniority with their company, they left their company just to have a sabbatical and how it's been a blessing to them and their church. I'm curious, in your study, what you have learned from this and what you think at this time.
JOHN: Well, that's one of the reasons, Ed, that I decided to go away for three months. I've talked to some pastors who have said to me things like this: I left my church and it was the biggest mistake I ever made in my life. If I'd have just taken a year off, I could've come back with a renewed vigor, a renewed heart and I think I would have fulfilled my ministry there. You can get under the pressure so much that you can never see any light at the end of the tunnel. You know how in a workweek you look forward to a weekend? You know how in a work year you look forward to a vacation? Well, that's very necessary. You know, you enjoy the anticipation of that probably as much as you do the reality of it...the planning of it, the anticipation and so forth. For someone like me in the ministry, there is a certain relentlessness to the ministry. There's a certain...you know, there's no light at the end of the tunnel. I mean, it's your life. You have no options. If God has you here, that's it. And the only way you can have some of the freedom to get through some of the hard times is to sense that there's gonna be a time when you can kind of regroup, you know, and yet the struggle will cease for awhile. If you try to do it in a week or two, it never happens. Maybe three months isn't long enough, but at least it's step in that direction.
On the other hand, biblically, there's really no such standard in the New Testament. You don't see anybody in the New Testament just bailing out. The Lord, of course, retreated to a place of quiet with the Father and that's a daily kind of thing you have to do. But...so, I don't think you can give a biblical justification for this. It's just a time of refreshment. I know that over in Britain they very frequently send their pastor on a full one-year sabbatical. In fact, when I was over there a year ago, I was talking to one man who was just finishing up his yearly sabbatical and he felt it was tremendously profitable. The ministry here at Grace is very unique, though. In that country there's some traditions that kind of sustain things.
Yes?
QUESTIONER: May I ask two questions?
JOHN: Sure.
QUESTIONER: The first one...they're unrelated. The first one is on physical death.
JOHN: Mm-hmm.
QUESTIONER: We know that we pass into the presence of Christ, our souls, upon death. But does the Bible teach us what we should do with our physical bodies? Specifically, is there anything wrong with donating any organs to medical research? Is there anything wrong with cremation? That's question number one. Number two: In the Gospels, the four Gospels, the authors refer to our Lord as Jesus Christ. But Paul often reverses that...Christ Jesus. Is there a reason for this?
JOHN: Yeah, I think there is. Let me answer the second one first. I think the reason is this. The Gospel writers were writing when Jesus was alive. And so, to him, He was Jesus because that was His human name. You understand what I mean? The Gospel writers using Jesus Christ would be referring to Him as they knew Him to be Jesus. Paul, you see, is reflecting backwards on the theological reality of the Christ. And so Paul's look at him is not as personal as it is theological. And so Paul would be more prone to identify Him first by His theological name, the Messiah, the Christ, the Anointed, whereas the Gospel writers who walked with Him and experienced His life, you know, in the way that it's written in the Gospels, would be more prone, I think, to refer to Him in terms of His humanness.
The first question, let's see. Specifically, in regard to death, the Bible says in Philippians, chapter 1, "absent from the body, present with the Lord." II Corinthians, chapter 5, "better to depart and be with Christ." So there's instantaneous soul presence in the presence of Christ. Now, about the physical body, to me, and I don't feel there's any biblical problem with this, to me it's utterly insignificant what happens to the body. It doesn't matter. People say sometimes, well, what about cremation? What about in the Rapture? What'll happen? Listen, most people, by the time the Rapture comes, they're gonna be such a mess anyway, it wouldn't have mattered if they'd been burned. You know, to me that isn't an issue. If you want to donate your body to medical science, that's great. I think...I've seen some of that going on. We have a little guy in our church, for example, Danny Dodge, who is blind and has congenital kidney failure and he's on a dialysis machine. He's just waiting for someone who can donate the organs he needs, probably in death. And he's already received one and it didn't take so they had to remove it again and they're waiting again. But...so I think this is a wonderful thing. Now some people can't handle that. Right? I mean, some people can't handle that. Like Melinda said to me not long ago, she said, "Daddy, when I die will they throw dirt on me?" Well, some people have an emotional problem. A little child would. I don't want to go in a box and have them throw dirt on me. So when I go down there, don't let them put that dirt on me. So there are certain, you know, psychological or whatever attitudes we have. Some people can freely donate their body and not even worry about it. Some people would want to be cremated, others whatever. I don't really think that's a biblical issue at all. I think you don't worry about what happens to the body because you're gonna get a new one anyway. So, it's insignificant. I don't think there's any biblical word on it at all. Okay?
Any other questions? Yes?
QUESTIONER: Is it biblical for the church to incorporate with the state? If so, what verses do you use to establish this truth?
JOHN: Okay, I got the first part. Is it biblical for the church to incorporate within the state?
QUESTIONER: With the state.
JOHN: With the state.
QUESTIONER: Yes.
JOHN: Okay. Yeah, the answer to that is this. It is biblical in this sense, that we are subject to the powers that be for they're ordained of God. All right? You could put it another way. Is it biblical for you to have a marriage license? Well, the Bible doesn't talk about a marriage license. But if you want to have a relationship with a woman that is properly recognized as something other than adultery, you better get a marriage license. Is it biblical for you to have a driver's license? Can't you just say the Holy Spirit is my guide? I'm just gonna go puttin' around, you know. Well, no, you're gonna get a license because you're gonna get in a lot of trouble because this is the law of the state. "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's." Marriage licenses and driver's licenses and corporate licenses are rendering to Caesar what is Caesar's. All that the government is asking you to do is to identify yourself within the design and the framework of a legal description so that they can understand how you function within that society. I don't think you're giving anything away.
Now, I feel that there has to be a separation in a sense. The state cannot tell the church what to do because we have a divine mandate. Right? But it's no problem for me to...if the city says, for example, we would like you to build your parking lot with so many spaces per person in your church, that's fine. That's Caesar. Right? That's rendering to Caesar. If the state says to me, you will not preach this, that's when I bail out. So I think you have to keep your perspective. As long as you're dealing with the issues related to Caesar, I don't see any problem with it at all.
Okay, yes?
QUESTIONER: When we, the church, are raptured out is the blessing of the indwelling Holy Spirit going to be taken also? And if so, what about the new believers in the Tribulation period? What's going to sustain them?
JOHN: Just keep this in mind. The Bible nowhere says that the Holy Spirit will be removed during the Tribulation. This is a misconception of II Thessalonians, chapter 2 where it says He who restrains or He who hinders will be taken away. Now, there's a lot of discussion about He who hinders and who it is. I am of the conviction that it is the Holy Spirit but it is talking about the Antichrist. II Thessalonians 2:3-12 talks about Antichrist who comes with lying wonders and so forth, the man of sin, the son of perdition who deceives many and so forth and the whole world follows after him and all this kind of stuff. And in the midst of all of that, it says He who restrains will be taken away. Now, here's the key. During the time of the Tribulation, evil reaches its apex. Right? I mean, all hell breaks loose. For example, the demons that have been bound...and there are demons now that are bound in the pit...according to Revelation, chapter 9, during the Tribulation the pit is opened and all these other demons come gushing out and overrun the earth. So that during the Tribulation you not only have the intensity of satanic activity like we have today, but you will have massive more demons infiltrating the system. You also have, according to Revelation, chapter 12, that the demons are cast out of the sky. Right? Michael defeats them and they're cast to the earth so that the demons coming from above and the demons coming, as it were, from the pit beneath converge upon the earth and there is an utter holocaust of evil across the face of the earth. So much so that men slaughter one another in it. It's an incredibly evil time.
Now, what I believe is this. But up until that time, the Holy Spirit restrains evil from reaching its apex and the Holy Spirit in the life of the believers is the restrainer. We are the salt. Right? And we are the light. If there's any light and any salt, it's the believers. So we act...as the Spirit works through us and as the Spirit, perhaps, working even independently of us, restrains evil, but when the man of sin comes, the son of perdition, during the time of the Tribulation, then the church goes. There goes our influence. No salt and no light initially. Right? And the Spirit of God, I believe, takes away His hand of restraint from evil and evil runs to its gamut.
But people are going to be saved. We know that. Revelation 7 says Israel are going to be saved. And it says so many Gentiles will be saved they couldn't even be numbered of all tribes and peoples and nations and tongues. There'll be a great salvation. Now, anybody who is saved, the Bible says, is born of the...Spirit. Therefore, the Spirit of God would have to be here or that couldn't occur. So I don't believe that it teaches the Spirit of God won't be here. I just believe that the salt and the light is gone and the restraining work of the Spirit which retards evil from reaching its fullness. For example, even in the world today, there are some good men, aren't there, who have moral standards. But when the Antichrist takes over the whole world and starts laying out policy, he is so vile that all good men will have nothing to say. Even men with some, whatever you call them, milk of human kindness or virtue or whatever.
So I just believe that's the essence of what that means. Not that there will be no Holy Spirit or else no one could be saved. And I believe it is the Spirit that upholds us and sustains us. It is His life in us that continues to cause us to know God. Therefore, He's gonna be there with that community of believers. Okay?
Yes?
QUESTIONER: A few times in the Gospels, Jesus made the statement where the vultures are gathered or "where the carcass is, there the vultures will be gathered." I think He made most of the references in regard to the last days. And every time I look at that verse I end up scratching my head.
JOHN: Yeah, it's Matthew 24.&