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Exposing the Ten Pillars of Gambling

Thursday, June 30, 2011

Gambling is a blight on our nation, a cancer that eats away at the souls of millions. In spite of the fact that it increases crime rates, degrades morals, and destroys families, gambling has thrived. Why?

The answer is both simple and profound. Gambling is built on sin. If you clear away the glamour, the twinkling lights, and the jackpot sound effects, you’ll find ten pillars of sin that support the whole enterprise.

In this final post on the subject of gambling, John MacArthur will identify those pillars with precision, cutting through the clutter to bring biblical clarity to the issue. Just click play.

Listen to this 6-minute clip:

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#1  Posted by Rebecca Schwem  |  Thursday, June 30, 2011at 8:55 AM

Thank you John MacArthur for your boldness to teach the truth. One way to know that you teach the truth is by how many object. And in this series, GTY has had many that object. So, I say GOOD JOB!

For those that want to get into some gray areas...cards at home, raffles, etc, I'd like to tell you what I used to tell my children when there was no definitive scripture to show them.

When my children ....and now my grandchildren challenge me with, "Well, what about this?" or "What about that?", I simply say,"You could do better."

Isn't that true when we are trying to find a way to show that certain laws, whether civil or scriptural commandments, don't apply to the level of our activities, that, even so....."we could do better"?

The other thing I ask young people is,"Do you need to do this?" That usually stumps them and if they reply at all, they have to admit that they don't need to but rather it's a "want", a "desire".

Once I talked to a young man and his fiance. They were soon to marry and mentioned they would serve some alcohol at their reception. He mentioned that her family drank when they played cards but always drank responsibly, never any drunkenness.I asked him why he wanted alcohol at a reception knowing that there might be some there that don't drink responsibly? He said that it relaxes people and they seem to enjoy themselves more. To which I asked if he was suggesting that those that don't serve alcohol at their receptions or while playing cards were incapable of having as good a time as those that do, he replied "No". He then tried to explain further but couldn't and finally looked at his fiance who had a big grin on her face while watching him try to explain and said to her,"Are you going to help me out here?" He may or may not have had a point about serving alcohol but "He Could Do Better".

When we do anything "responsibly" such as gambling and it requires playing against another, how do we know that the other is being responsible? Is that loving our brother? It's like the drug dealer that sells the drugs. He's a health nut and wouldn't use them himself. He's more disciplined with his body.When we do anything at the expense of others, it's wrong.

Hate to keep using kid analogies but have you ever had a kid that teased his sister and when she complained he said to you,"I was just kidding."? To which my reply was,"If you are the only one enjoying the teasing, then it's wrong! Don't do it unless both of you are having fun!"

Do our pleasures interfere with our seeking holiness? "Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God." 2 Corinthians 7:1. "As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." 1 Peter 1:14-16. Former ignorance? Ouch, Peter!

#2  Posted by Marc Lambert  |  Thursday, June 30, 2011at 10:27 AM

This gambling topic has been very educational.

I realize that I have the inclination to separate the intellectual ideas/definition of something from the real life application. Is gambling intrinsically a sinful act? Technically, no. Is it true that it can be a doorway to sin and a more-often-than-not harmful activity best left alone? Absolutely.

Perhaps others, like myself, can get caught up in the intellectial technicalities of a question that we forget it is real people with real problems and struggles living in a fallen world trying to get by in world at war between good and evil. I know it is a failing of mine.

That's my 50 cents worth.

#3  Posted by Dan Wilson  |  Thursday, June 30, 2011at 11:01 AM

A cousin of mine when she goes to Las Vegas to see her Uncle. She tells me she use a 20 dollar bill to gamble, and she tells me she don't like gambling and she does it for it's fun. I tried to explain it's a waste of money but failed. She says she loves Las Vegas's lights and the buildings not the Casinos. Nothing is wrong with the lights but it's the heart of the city is sinful. Just a thought.

#4  Posted by Rebecca Schwem  |  Thursday, June 30, 2011at 11:11 AM

I used to love, I mean love secular music. I come from a musical family. Even now, I have professional musicians in my family. As a child I was in many productions where I sang solo in front of one or two thousand people. I think in Heaven God will let me sing on a hilltop with a full orchestra like Julie Andrews did in the Sound of Music.

I sing when I clean house, rock babies and do the income tax. I love lyrics to songs. My all time favorite vocalist was Barbra Streisand.I saw her first TV appearance on The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. She was quirky and people laughed but I knew her voice was so special, I knew sitting in my bedroom in front of a little TV set at 14 years old that she was going to be a huge star! I literally thought I was watching a star in the making. It was a powerful experience for my age. And I was right. She became a super star!

My love for music extends to my Email address too which is in part "lyrics". Some have even renamed me and call me Lyrics now.OK, I think you get the picture.Music has not just been a passing fancy for me.

Since becoming a Christian, God keeps transforming my heart, my life. I never read that it was unGodly for me to listen to Barbra Streisand or any secular artist. Still, the more I get into the Word, the less attractive my former life and habits and needs are. They seem to be fading. I'm losing my taste for the things of this earth. On occasion, I get into someone else's car where the radio station is playing a song I used to love and knew all the words to. It's just not the same. In fact, it is boring.

I'm sure you all know the song Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus. I LOVE the lyrics in that song.

"Turn your eyes upon Jesus

Look full in His wonderful face"

OK, here's the best part of that chorus, don't miss it.....

"And the things of earth (ie gambling)will grow strangely dim,

In the light of His Glory and Grace!"

Are you living in the light of His Glory and Grace? Before this transformation, I could have easily argued the technical reasons that not all gambling was sinful. Or that not all secular music is sinful. Or movies or TV or whatever. It just doesn't interest me when I think of the things of Christ. I guess you could say Jesus spoiled my appetite for such things. My down time is spent wanting more Jesus. That's how I relax the best. As kids say,"That's how I roll". I didn't do it. Jesus did.

There is no condemnation in what I say here. I'm just telling you all that they way some of you choose to relax, no longer appeals to me. I feel no need to try to cram a square peg (ie gambling, music, movies, books, TV, etc) into a round hole (theology).

I will never ask another,"Why do you study scripture so much? Why do you pray so much?" I get it. But I might ask another,"Why do you protest so much? Why are you so determined to prove what you do is not a sin?"

AS JM said, we need to check and recheck our motives.

#5  Posted by Rudi Jensen  |  Thursday, June 30, 2011at 11:45 AM

You should know how "lucky" you are, or to use a more correct word - blessed, to have gifted pastors/teachers as Phil and John.

I'm the guest here, comming from a foreign country, but I can tell you plainly - my part of the world is slowly dying, lacking men like these.

My contribution is translating as much as I can of John MacArthurs teaching, to let the bright light shine in my country, occupied by liberals. But oh my - that man can talk for hours, weeks, months, years, centuries, so it's a slow progress...

So what a relief, to have only 6 minutes of bone crushing truth.

#6  Posted by Rebecca Schwem  |  Thursday, June 30, 2011at 12:01 PM

Oh, Rudy, may God bless you for all you do! You have humbled me.

Thank you.

#7  Posted by Rebecca Schwem  |  Thursday, June 30, 2011at 12:36 PM

Well, Rudi, I think I misspelled your name....again. I am so sorry.

I have en eye disorder called blepharospasm. It's actually a neuro disorder that affects my eyes. The simple explanation is, my eyes have spasms and I see things like I'm looking through a strobe light...now you see it, now you don't. It's hard being accurate and takes a lot of time reviewing and reviewing what I think I saw or read.Hope I'm not repeating myself. That isn't one of the symptoms.That's just old age.

But my point is.....this disorder is so crazy and cumbersome and time consuming in so many ways. Very frustrating. Slows me down. But God, in His Glory and Grace, improves my eye sight with song! Yes, if I sing, the rhythm of singing or even humming returns my eyes to almost normal. Imagine that! A gal that loves music, loves to sing, has a disability that is relieved by singing! Is that a God thing or what? Isn't that mercy, isn't that grace?

What does that have to do with gambling? Nothing and everything. If we would just turn away from the things of this earth and focus more intently on the things of God, the former things we fought for, the things we were ignorant in (as Peter states) will grow strangely dim. We will one day realize that most things we fought for simply were not worth fighting for after all.And the bonus; we see more clearly, more often, His Glory and Grace working in our lives and in those with whom we are close.

#8  Posted by Dan Wilson  |  Thursday, June 30, 2011at 4:35 PM

Love the posts.

Yes, Gambling is a sinful act, from Bingo to the Slots then on to the Roulette Wheel.

#9  Posted by Darrel Robertson  |  Thursday, June 30, 2011at 7:51 PM

Ok this is my final thought, Phil and John, I with all my heart felt Holy spirit guidance on this subject, must say I do not agree...I still feal Gambling in itself if played with controll of selfish desires and greed, IS NOT SINFUL...yes it is built to stur thoes sins up in all of us, but from what I still read gambling itself is clearly not sinful, becoming addicted to it is a sin. People can become addicted to all sorts of things, drugs, alcohol, sex, video games, even food can make people lose touch with reality and become slaves to their habits. Many of these groups act as though people have no control over their actions and that gambling is too tempting for people not to become addicted to it. This perhaps reflects their own inability to abstain from temptations. Temptation is all around us and it starts from within. Anything can become sinful if taken to extremes and gambling is the same way.

I have heard this subject preached upon for years and the same thing is said, but it is how it is said....YOU ARE LAZY, YOU ARE A THIEF...YOU ARE GREEDY...YOU ARE NOT A GOOD STEWARD..When my Lord tells me "there is now no condemnation on me if I am in Christ Jesus" and if I gamble it gets heaped upon us if we do. I once heard a pastor say "we need to keep that wastful Vegas Money in the Church where it belongs"...and frankly that is where I feel, is the main thrust...Its OK for Churches to operate in the RED, to have the most lavish things money can buy so they pile on the guilt trips mis quoted scriptures and condemnation, in the fact if you gamble casually you are just as sinful as if you play it all the time.

But I have known many in the Church including its leaders that wouldnt think twice about having that sinful proud look about owning a $40,000 car when a $20,000 car would of been just as accomodating....or owning a 450,000 house so people will admire them more when a 300,000 home would of been more sutable for the income....I have 4 close relatives that play slots once in a while and poker, no one has been adicted because they have never let it rule over them, but I had a very dear Mother in law that was taken by nicotine when she was 51, my Brother was killed by a drunk driver when he was 17, my AUNT, UNCLE was taken out by a guy so high on dope he dint even know he hit anyone untill the day after....so yes I do know what addiction can do and yes adicted to Gambling can affect....if addicted...there are more people in the USA that are digging a early grave with their teeth, than spinning a slot machine wheel...I know people will now say how imature spiritually I am, and I AM not intune with the LORD ETC....with all do respect to GTY I just do not agree that casual gambling if in controll is a sin....Lord Bless

#11  Posted by Brent Fokken  |  Thursday, June 30, 2011at 10:28 PM

Some questions to ponder for those Christians who gamble and or defend gambling;

-As someone asked in a earlier blog post to which no one has yet answered: How does gambling glorify God? How does it honor or please him in any way whatsoever?

-Could you in good conscience make your living working directly in the gambling industry? Could you make your income as a direct result of other people’s misery, foolishness and sinfulness? No? Why do you gamble then? The very money you think you harmlessly won from someone else perpetuates and contributes to the sin, misery and folly of those who are most likely lost and perishing. Is that loving your neighbor? Or is it exploiting your neighbor?

-Do you place bets with illegal bookies? Do you use off shore gambling web sites, which are also illegal? How do you justify and rationalize this illegal activity?

-Have you declared all your gambling winnings on your tax returns? A quick search of the IRS tax implications revealed all gambling winnings need to be declared, even if losses exceeded winnings as losses can only be claimed if you itemize your deductions. If you have not claimed your gambling winnings, are you not guilty of theft, deceit, and tax evasion at the very least? The IRS might not know, but God does. Again, how do you justify and rationalize this?

-Bottom line, is it possible that a personal idol is being threatened by this series? When idols are threatened, we can tend to protect them in any way we can instead of destroying and yielding them to the Lord. Is gambling an idol for you? Try giving it up and see. You might be surprised the hold it had on you and God may be glorified by your surrendering it, along with your time, talent and treasure to him.

Finally, by gambling, or defending it, you are giving your approval and legitimizing an illegitimate, immoral and demonic industry whose sole intent is for people to deny the true God, believe the lies of the evil one, and believe in the non-existent gods of luck and chance. That is not pleasing, honoring or glorifying to our God, our Lord, our Savior, our Treasure, in any way, shape or form. Wanna bet? I pray not.

The last paragraph is from the end of John’s sermon from the above audio clip:

“Well, for anyone to support it, including United States Government, is a travesty on moral and social responsibility. The government might as well sell drugs. Gambling is the result of post-modern pessimism. The hopelessness of practical atheism that says there's no God, no hope, no future, no reason, no rationality, just luck...that's...that's something we can thank evolution for. There's no God. It's all just luck. And so the senselessness of gambling makes sense. It succeeds in a mood of despair and hopelessness, a mood of moral relativism and atheism, but it doesn't belong with biblical Christianity. It is a sin to be avoided and, bless God, a sin to be forgiven.”

#12  Posted by Darrel Robertson  |  Thursday, June 30, 2011at 11:59 PM

post #11 Brent fokken

-As someone asked in a earlier blog post to which no one has yet answered: How does gambling glorify God? How does it honor or please him in any way whatsoever...

Ya know I love these kind of post so may I ask...how does Nascar Glorify God by going around a track 200+ Mph and if you hit a wall wrong you die! biggest sponsor...alcohol....or how about how does Hydroplane boat racing Glorify God when its life expectency for a driver is 5 years biggest sponsor, Budwizer....or how about skydiving when you jump out of a plane your considered dead untill you pull your cord...or how does it Glorify God by a preacher preaching with the mindset where he wants his Church to look the best by its material outset,rather than its spiritual output (and please by no-means am I saying GTY is doing this, THEY ARE NOT)...How does it Glorify God by going to Africa just to kill a elephant, just because you want to, I know many Christians that do.

This issue we are disscussing is Phills and John Macarthur,s view and a few other Pastors...but not mine...you see The Lord is my shepherd,

I shall not want;

He makes me lie down in green pastures.

He leads me beside still waters;

He restores my soul.

He leads me in paths of righteousness

for His name's sake. ....Not John MaCarthur or any pastor, it is Christ to whom I rise and fall, not John Macarthur or any Pastor.

I must say I have nothing but the most high admaration for GTY and John Macarthur I was so glad when he came out on the Catholic subject I lost 2 very good Catholic friends because they new I agreed whole heartedly whith Pastor John....do I vote YES when Gambling issues come on Ballot? NOPE! nor would I vote for certain massage palors, porn book shops, Taverns, beer and wine in supermarkets...If Gambling was ruled illegal tomarrow throught out the USA..it would have no affect on me or many of us that do it very little

In fact if you want to know the truth I think throwing dice, spinning a rulette wheel (spelling) playing slots...are one of the most dumbest things one can do, but it is still not a sin.

#13  Posted by Scott Davidson  |  Friday, July 01, 2011at 1:35 AM

@ #4 Rebecca, I really enjoyed this particular response. About 20 years ago I enjoyed hard secular music. Guns N Roses, Van Halen, Def Leppard and the like. Now, since God has transformed my life, like you, I have no desire for that old life. I however used to be very adament about Christians should not listen to secular music, but after my study in Romans of our Christian liberty I understand now that music in itself is not inherently evil and if between that person and God their conscience is clear regarding this then it is ok for them to listen to "some" secular music. But I think you may agree with this, the more we study God's word and let His word transform our lives it would replace this desire to listen to things that are of the world. I am surprised how many Christians do list musicians such as Lada Gaga or AC/DC or the Beastie Boys to name a few as some of their favorite singers or bands. With these I wonder how in depth some people study and allow to penetrate their hearts the word of God. Anyway, I always enjoy reading your comments.

#14  Posted by Dan Wilson  |  Friday, July 01, 2011at 5:26 AM

Gambling is robbing us of our lifestyle and our relationship with God. Thanking Jesus for money one wins is wrong, just plain wrong. I agree with him and I agree with Phil. As the Word says in scriptures, that man is doing what is right in their own eyes in this age, not in the eyes of the Lord.

#16  Posted by Keith Stokes  |  Friday, July 01, 2011at 7:28 AM

The people who have said gambling is not a sin, you are 100% right. But if you listen to the full sermon on this current blog, you will see as Dr. MacArthur states,the pillars gambling itself rests upon when removed comes tumbling down. Take the sinful actions gambling breeds and there is no gambling. Gambling is the product of it's pillars. I think that the people who are so bent on defending gambling need to evaluate their heart and their motives for not wanting to forsake it. I can't help but thinking of the parable Jesus taught about the Rich Young Ruler(Lk.18). When the Lord told him what he needed to give up to enter into eternal life, and he would not/could not let it go (riches). There appears to me to be a vice grip in the lives of people, who refuse to even consider that maybe what they refuse to forsake is sin or at the very least does nothing to build up the Kingdom of God and His saints and that it reflects poorly on God and how Christians are to conduct themselves.(Philippians 4:8) Just stop and reflect on the surroundings of gambling.:liquor drinking,smoking,crime, cursing,drugs, prostitution, cheating and the list goes on and on. Why, being a Christian would you subject yourself to those elements? The argument some have said here that I bring friends to the gambling hall and they are more relaxed to talk about Jesus in "their atmosphere" is silly. You are exposing the the Church(your body is part of the Church) to the world. Sorry friend. I can assure you there will be no gambling halls in heaven so you best get your friends used to the idea of Kingdom worship and all that it encompasses. That would be hauling them off to the Church and preaching Jesus to them there.

#19  Posted by Tommy Clayton  |  Friday, July 01, 2011at 9:03 AM

Darrel:

Thanks for having the courage to comment in this series as a gambler. I appreciate your transparency and courage.

I think it might be helpful for you to go back and critically review some of your arguments. If you look closely, I think you’ll find your logic to be weak at best. For instance, you claim your feelings on the subject are “guided by the Holy Spirit,” yet not once have you truly grounded your arguments in Scripture. That’s a dangerous claim, friend. On the contrary, you appeal to your own feelings and experience to try and make your case. For that reason, your conclusions are unconvincing.

According to your comment, you disagree with this series for the following reasons:

I feel gambling in itself if played with control of selfish desires and greed, IS NOT SINFUL

Anything can become sinful if taken to extremes, and gambling is the same way.

My Lord tells me "There is no condemnation on me if I am in Christ Jesus."

Once I heard a pastor say, "We need to keep that wasteful Vegas money in the church where it belongs."

I have known many in the church including its leaders that wouldn’t think twice about having that sinful proud look about owning a $40,000 car…

I have 4 close relatives that play slots once in a while, and poker. No one has been addicted.

There are more people in the USA that are digging an early grave with their teeth, than spinning a slot machine wheel.

#20  Posted by Keith Stokes  |  Friday, July 01, 2011at 9:14 AM

#17 You are correct in everything you say. But the blog is not about socially acceptable/unacceptable sins that the Church acts upon or is silent on. Therefore I was commenting on the given topic at hand: Gambling. Again, you are right and the Church is obligated and commanded to condemn all sin and not to do so is sin in itself. Sin should never be accepted because it has slipped into the "acceptabe" category in the Church. Maybe if the Church was on the defensive more instead of trying to mix and fit in with the world and stood vigilant against grey areas like gambling there would be less acceptable sins tolerated like santa clause and gluttony as you mentioned. But when the Church comes out lethargic on themes like gambling do you really think they wouldn't wink at socially acceptable sins you've listed? That is the danger of being in the world rather then of the world. People in the Church want to fit in so well with the world, they let their guard down and before they know it are almost indistinguishable from the lost. Jude tells us to be careful when pulling people out of the fire, even hating the garment spotted by the flesh( Jude 23)

#21  Posted by Barbara Laurie  |  Friday, July 01, 2011at 10:11 AM

to #17 Donovan. If you haven't in 20 yrs heard a sermon on gluttony you need to find a church that teaches through the bible. I attend such a church, very little in the way of "programs" BIG on expository preaching. But To you & #9 (Darrell).. basing your complaints on what other people do or don't do, say or don't say isn't an argument nor is it worth much in a debate. God doesn't care a whit if, in your life you never heard "this taught", or you believe in your heart, sincerely believe "this". Back up your arguments as well as PJ or JM have with scripture and this turns into a real debate and not a back & forth of "yes it is "no it isn't". I think the moderator, Mr. Johnson and others have been very patient with many of the immature comments here. It's easy to read between the lines,you like gambling.

You look at other people "worse" than you. You think you are in control. You have no scripture to back all that up. But God says in His word, "the heart is deceitfully wicked, who can know it?" "There's a way that seems right unto a man, but it leads to death"

All you that say you are Christians but want to go ahead and gamble, encouraging others to do so with you: Remember, we are our Brother's keeper. We do have a responsibility to those around us in how we live. there is no condemnation in Christ, but this is not true to those who do not walk by the Spirit (you may want to reread that Romans 8 chapter)

to #19 Tommy: I disagree with 100% of everything you usually post, except I find myself agreeing with 95% of this post. Very good thinking, we do have to show our arguments with scripture, That isn't twisted I might add. I think JM in his full 2 Sunday sermon on the topic did an excellent job of explaining why we must not gamble.

(And who knows, stay away from the buffets too...??).

I've enjoyed the topic living in a big gambling area, I am more convinced than ever that, by taking the whole counsel of God's word together we can find answers to seemingly gray areas of our lives.

To Rudi: God Bless you brother, my prayers are with you today.

To Rebecca Hey sista!

#24  Posted by Marc Lambert  |  Friday, July 01, 2011at 11:00 AM

#11

I would like to state at the outset, that I do not gamble. The closest I've come to a casino is walking past slots in the Vegas airport. The games themselves played for gambling are not my cup of tea. That being said, I have from time to time, in the past, enjoyed some small stakes recreational games with friends and family at home.

- How does gambling glorify God? How does it honor or please him in any way whatsoever?

Stronger bonds among members of The Body of Christ. My "gambling" was among fellow believers where nothing of real value was at stake. The enjoyment was from the fellowship being had. As for any greed or covetousness, we may as well have been playing checkers or go-fish. Through that fellowship bonds have been built between family members who have since been key in Godly counsel, prayer, and discipleship.

-Could you in good conscience make your living working directly in the gambling industry? Could you make your income as a direct result of other people’s misery, foolishness and sinfulness?

No. I also would not make a living as a bar tender. That does not mean it is instrinsically a sin for me to have a drink.

-Do you place bets with illegal bookies? Do you use off shore gambling web sites, which are also illegal? How do you justify and rationalize this illegal activity?

No, but those activities have other sinful aspects. The bible says we are to obey authorities. Plus, these are negative acts associated with gambling, but are not necessary for gambling to happen. As such they are not the issue.

-Have you declared all your gambling winnings on your tax returns?

I've never won enough to need to claim it. But again, this is a secondary issue, associated with, but separate from gambling itself.

-Bottom line, is it possible that a personal idol is being threatened by this series?

Nope. I don't currently gamble, and can count on one hand the times I have.

Finally, by gambling, or defending it, you are giving your approval and legitimizing an illegitimate, immoral and demonic industry

I am quite against gambling, as an industry. In the same way bars are a celebration of sinful excess, casinos and such spread the corruption of what is otherwise not an intrinsically sinful act.

whose sole intent is for people to deny the true God, believe the lies of the evil one, and believe in the non-existent gods of luck and chance.

While I am sure this is the case with many who fall prey to the addiction of gambling, greedily seeking quick gain ... it does not necessarily apply to all gambling at all times.

Many of the sins associated with gambling are not necesarily committed by playing the game. However, the RISK of sin being present, it is better to err on the side of caution and avoid the activity altogether. But if one is able to do so without engaging in the other sins mentioned ... it is not a sin just to simply play a game.

#25  Posted by Rebecca Schwem  |  Friday, July 01, 2011at 11:20 AM

"When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways." 1 Corinthians 13:11

I know why I draw upon experiences I had with children to explain a scripture or a principal in scripture. I had ten kids! So there you go. But I seem to be having deja vu. Haven't I heard some of these defenses before? Why do they sound so familiar? And it came to me. I know I've had these same justifications from 10 different 12 year olds. Folks, I'm being totally honest with you. The lengths I read some of you go to in order to explain away sin takes me back. It's like those knock knock jokes I've heard a gazillion times. The second through the tenth kid had no idea they were history repeating itself. I knew what they were going to say before they did.

Now look, I know what I said is offensive to some. But that's because to read where an adult Christian explains away or justifies sin because of other sins is offensive to me.Who doesn't know there are plenty of other sins out there disguised as being acceptable? Is there anyone on this blog that doesn't know that? That's the behavior I have dealt with among children for over 40 years now and with 25 grandchildren, it goes on and on. "Well, I don't see why I can't. There are other kids doing worse things that I do". Or, "I don't know why you are grounding me? Just because I missed curfew again? No one else in the family brought home straight A's!" I really think we need to practice our rebuttals as if we are standing before the throne of God. Stand up and say it out loud and get that picture in your head. Let your words ring out as if that day has arrived because one day, you will be doing just that to the One that knows your every thought!. Something happens when we say our convictions out loud.

#15, Donovan, Allow me to try and communicate my idea more clearly. To recap, you said, "Surely you must know that is a flawed way to determine truth." No, I never meant that statement to be a measuring stick for truth but rather a sign among many signs. Still, it's not as un scriptural as you might think.The truth rocks the boat.Tickling ears does not. If that was all JM did, there would be little debate.He does not pander to our passions. 2 Timothy 4:3

The reason the Holy Spirit will keep some in darkness on this subject for another season, I know not.

"Now Samuel did not yet know the LORD: The word of the LORD had not yet been revealed to him." 1 Samuel 3:7 "Do not speak in the hearing of a fool, for he will despise the good sense of your words."Proverbs 23:9. So, my comments are not for the "fools". I comment for those that are earnestly seeking God's will and want biblical direction and to be fed truth. I'm not speaking to those that are annoyed by the truth. I believe that God's Word, through the boldness and courage of John MacArthur, divides people like a two edged sword. Hebrews 4:12. Does that help?

#26  Posted by Rebecca Schwem  |  Friday, July 01, 2011at 12:01 PM

Donovan #23. To walk over to a gutter and throw money even once into the sewer is wrong. To answer your question, one would have to assume that only extreme gambling is wrong as in extreme eating. So many of us here would think you are comparing apples with oranges. Many of us believe that moderate eating is a necessity while moderate gambling is not.

Let me put it this way, gluttony is sinful. Justifying gluttony makes the sin worse. A little gambling is also sinful. Justifying it makes it worse. One can walk away from any appearance of gambling and live. One cannot walk away from food and live.

Is gluttony an indication of other problems? Maybe. And not dealt with, those problems will eventually manifest itself to the degree that a person's life is out of control. Being "out of control" is a real concern when it comes to the leadership question you posed.

But we cannot look at an obese person and say with certainty that he or she is obese because he or she is lazy and a glutton or because he or she has some real medical issue. We simply just don't know.

Let's look at what we do know. We know when a person gambles, it is wrong from the very first bet. Not acceptable. Eating is acceptable to God. Abusing it, is not. Gambling for all the reasons others have stated previously is never acceptable to God. You would think as much as Jesus liked to fellowship and have a good time, He would have been at a craps table as well as the dining table if it were OK. I've only heard of Jesus, between His speaking engagements, either praying or talking to His disciples or walking or eating or taking a nap for pleasure or His down time.

Please don't use the argument,"Well, you never read where Jesus shot pool or played darts or paid a cable bill. Does that make those things bad too?" Depends on if gambling is involved. I do think Jesus had fun walking on water!

#28  Posted by Rebecca Schwem  |  Friday, July 01, 2011at 1:03 PM

#22 Donovan, it's your turn again. You stated, "It seems like many who have posted here are unwilling to agree that maybe you can have a principled argument that gambling isn’t a sin because the Bible doesn’t say that it is."

Do you believe that unless the Bible mentions an activity by it's specific name as being a sin, then it cannot be?

I mean, putting a diving board into the shallow end of your pool is not in the Bible either. Diving off of it and breaking your neck isn't mentioned there either. Nor is doing a cannon ball into your bathtub mentioned as a sin. The Bible does say,

"Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body."1 Corinthians 6:19-20.

To me, that covers it and to do otherwise (ie cannon ball into your bathtub)and risk permanent injury if not death, is a sin. I don't find in scripture, including Proverbs, where it says,"All's well that ends well" or any variation of that principal.

#30  Posted by Mark A Smith  |  Friday, July 01, 2011at 1:43 PM

Donovan,

Hang in there. I tried something similar when the blogs were about gambling being theft...Phil Johnson said it, so it must be true. I got little response on my points other than I was clouded by my own gunsmoke!

I appreciate what you are trying to do. We must be bulldogs about what the Bible does condemn, but patient with the gray areas and be careful to come up with our own legal interpretations of what sin is and isn't when the Bible is not clear.

#31  Posted by Luke Fulliton  |  Friday, July 01, 2011at 1:59 PM

Oh boy, where to start. John did a good job of pointing out the ten pillars of gambling. I am assuming that people are to use that information to arrive at the conclusion that either gambling is sin or Christians should not gamble. So the strategy is to claim that gambling is built on sin and then go on to list all the sins associated with and supporting gambling. At face value and first glance this is a good attempt at supporting the idea that gambling is sin. However, anyone and everyone who invests in the stock market should go back through that sound clip from John’s sermon and place “stock market” where John places “gambling”. Ironically, the same ten pillars of sin that support gambling also support the stock market. I repeat, the same ten pillars of sin that support gambling also support the stock market. Now, stop and think about that. If John’s premise against gambling is to support the idea that gambling is sin, or that Christians should not gamble, then would not a logical conclusion be Christians should not put their money in the stock market either? How can anyone put any wait in this “ten pillars” argument when it has so much hypocrisy written on it?

#32  Posted by Rebecca Schwem  |  Friday, July 01, 2011at 2:14 PM

Donovan, your comments on #27. I know you're not comparing moderate eating with moderate gambling. That is my point. You aren't comparing like values.

Could you give me the specific quote of my statement where I said I know the motives of a person's heart? Unable to find it. Also, I think if you re read my comments, you will see I said we do not know the reason for a person's obesity....not for their gluttony.

As far as the reasons for a person's obesity, your admission that it may originally be due to a metabolic disorder but that even that can be controlled by healthy eating, is a judgement on your part. Healthy eating might help one to stave off 100 pounds or maybe only 5-10 pounds. You and I still do not know for certain. My point is, we don't need medical records to understand why anyone makes that first bet.

No, I do not do Santa Clause nor encourage it or condemn it as stated. I'm really not as concerned about gambling as much as I am justification of it. And I see this series chocked full of comparing it to other sins. It's all over the place.

The point about fools and darkness...that was scripture, my friend, that was scripture. And I find it extremely helpful. But you know how scripture is? It's always talking about someone else.

OK, so far, to summarize all that has been written on this subject by those that don't see it as a sin in moderation:

1. There are many others sins not addressed in many churches ...and

2. It's not specifically mentioned in the Bible.

3. Oh...and it does offer bonding.

Everything else was just details.

#29 and #30, Donovan and Mark, respectfully, I will not speak for others but I do not think I have been unfair on this blog. I am firm and frank and I like to reason. And it disturbs me that being firm and frank and offering my reasons and or experiences, as you have Donovan, or giving opinions might disturb anyone. I don't tickle ears either.

#34  Posted by Rudi Jensen  |  Friday, July 01, 2011at 3:38 PM

The Bible never mentions heroin or marijuana either. Hurray we are free to smoke joints - right? according to your logic, we can do it maturely?

What the Bible repeatable states is warning upon warning upon warning...

I read in the Bible, that many are so deceived that they are terrible surprised when they hear, "I never knew you, depart from me...."

We are not just dealing with rules, but the Living God, Jesus our Lord. Do you really love Him?

That's the bottom line, I think

#35  Posted by Rebecca Schwem  |  Friday, July 01, 2011at 3:45 PM

#33, "It seems like you're using scripture as an oblique ad hominem attack, which gives you cover as you note above. Maybe you aren't, but it seems that way. The comment above seems condescending also."

Donovan, my point was a serious one. I mean, you can accuse me of using scripture as a cover even though we should use scripture if it is applies. But you gave, in my opinion with that statement, a non answer. But OK. I just can't start worrying about if people think I'm hiding behind scripture. People often believe that scripture should be applied by anyone and everyone but themselves. That's just putting it out there. If you don't benefit from that remark, then you don't.

I just don't know how else to convey my ideas. I don't agree with your friend that "if you aren't offending them, then you aren't doing it right". My suggestion was not to offend in order to show you are "doing it right". My suggestion was that often speaking the truth with boldness is going to be offensive.See the difference?

I re read my post and tried to see it through your eyes. I can be sarcastic for sure but that was not my attempt. Often, when we object to another's opinions and we characterize what we believe we heard or read, it can make one sound foolish. I think I repeated in summary what I have heard from others, not just you.I intended to make an impact with such a summary. Is it OK that I think it is foolish? I do.

Sometimes when we mirror back what another has said, it can sound ridiculous. You and I both need that. It's good for correction. That's why I say we should read aloud our comments. The words or reasoning can seem to hang in the air. Ever listen to a recording of yourself....not just enunciation or tone or accent but your reasoning? It can be a real eye opener.

Look, I can consider your suggestions that are personal and I have. But you might want to consider that it is not me you have an issue with but truly maybe the foolishness of your arguments. Neither one of us has anything to lose but everything to gain by taking these considerations seriously.

I will honor your decision to no longer communicate. I may respond to your thoughts but not call you out by name and or comment #. I think we obviously both failed to communicate our intent.No offense taken and no offense meant.

I pray the Lord will set us both straight.

#36  Posted by Darrel Robertson  |  Friday, July 01, 2011at 5:48 PM

post #19 Tommy Claton...

In all do respect I do not have to convince you of nothing, in no way would I even think of trying to convince anyone that casual Gambling, or throwing 5 bucks down on a lottery ticket is OK.....that is between the convictions of the Holy Spirit and them...I have had 5 e-mails from different people from five different states, that I know that understood exactly what I ment in my coments who have commented on this issue 2 agee with me and 3 dont, but we are still great friends....I was genericly just trying to make my points as short as possiable for the lack of space your given...I ask my 9 year old grandaughter "where would you find, there now is no condemnation in thoes who are in Christ Jesus" and she said Romans 8:1....and you couldnt figure that out?...I stop going into Christian blogs years ago mainly because of people who thought like you, they were always trying to tear other Christians down by trying to have a Scriptural answer for everything they did,so they could feel lifted up and frankly my friend its a sighn of a person who is very insacure of him or herself...and for me I am very sacure in my Lord, I knew when I came in here and stand my ground I would get flack, but thinking about GTY and Pastor John Macarthur I was hoping this blog sight was different.....many of you who are against Gambling I totally respect your decession if it is not condecending or legalistic.

All that needs to be said is "I feel convicted by the holy spirit that if I gamble its wrong"...I would in no way try to make you feel other wise...you see my wife is a Fight Attendant for one of the major Airlines so I go down to Vegas for the College football season almost every weekend....and if betting college football is not your cup of tea then I will take you up to Alaska for some great fishing at places that is not known to many AND I CHARGE THEM NOTHING...we will have a very great time in the Lord...now maby I dont have the best scriptures for this acts of love Tommy but my Lords seems to be ok with it. so Tommy blessings to you I am not here to try to convict anyone that Gambling is ok, there are many Christian poker players that do very well, and quite frankly I would rather watch paint dry, IT IS THAT BORING for me.

I have just met a guy who goes to GTY Through these blogs and I will fly down to pick him up and his 10 year old son and we will be going back to Cooperstown, New York so him and his son can see the Baseball hall of fame. And I live in Portland OREGON.

#37  Posted by Dan Wilson  |  Friday, July 01, 2011at 7:39 PM

Darrel, Can I ask a honest question, have you ask the Lord by reading His Word? And another better question- 20 dollars for a lottery ticket, or food on table?

#38  Posted by Keith Stokes  |  Friday, July 01, 2011at 7:52 PM

Last night I made a comment that never made it on hmmm...Well anyway it was about Christian love and 1 Cor.13 and Colossians 4:6. I'll attempt again. I know that we Christians will have disagreements from time to time but reading some of these last few blog comments some are very unChrist like laced with sarcasm, pride, anger and the such, which has no place amongst those who claim the name of Jesus. While trying to define if gambling is a sin or not, we have at times been guilty of several sins in the process. I think we should ponder well how we reply to each other even when we disagree so we don't grieve the Holy Spirit of God. If for nothing else, we never know when an unbeliver will stumble by(sober I hope, lol)because quite frankly at times I've seen secular sites debate with more grace and politeness in responses. Maybe it's just the topic but I've gone back through many old blogs and there is some very rude comments by those who claim to be Christians. I think brother Paul addresses that rather well in 1 Cor.3 somewhere. I just make these comments in love for all here and this is how it appears to me,and to remind us to love one another, His Church. As He loved it and gave His life for it. Ephesians 5:2. Have a blessed and happy Lord's Day and Fourth of July.

#39  Posted by Darrel Robertson  |  Friday, July 01, 2011at 10:55 PM

post #37 Dan wilson

"Darrel, Can I ask a honest question, have you ask the Lord by reading His Word? And another better question- 20 dollars for a lottery ticket, or food on table?"

Dan you may ask any question...My friend I attended a well known Bible College here in the Portland Oregon area, I took extencive night classes when I was 41 I am 61 now, I did it mainly for one reason....to get unanswered questions answered... I was saved in the Pentecostol Church and for years I had a very uneasy feeling about their practices, now that is the Holy Spirit showing me truth, whould not you say?, I read some things by John Macarthur and other well known evangelical Pastors and decided to study at a local College. As the 4 years went by I finished up what I wanted to learn about, Salvation, once saved always saved, different denomational structures, Christ who is this man named Jesus, What is the Holy Spirit etc. and upon my final year my councelor told me if i took some old testament studies I could receive a Biblical degree in Biblical studies which I did. By then "the so-called second blessing began to hit the "spirt filled Churches" and anything and every thing was not tested, my wife and I had enough and through much prayer and fasting we left and have not been back sence.

So Dan that same Holy Spirit that told me to go find truth in another Church has not in now way told me not to Gamble, I read it and ask questions believe me.but I must say like it is, now I am very cautious in what I do and so do many others, I know unblieving people that dont like to gamble. MAINLY because as many say "its a waist of money"...Dan I do not read anywhare it is sin , the sin is in the heart, and manafested through the personality of each person...for example take a slot machine and put it in your house and what do you have? a slot maching period it cant sin on its own, just like a idol in Pauls day could not speek but there were thoes that had a problem with ones that sacraficed meat to it, they could not eat it. so Paul said "dont offend the weeker bro, just dont eat it," Please understand I didnt come in here to defend Gambling, I came in here to say that there are thoes that very casualy pull a penny slot machine or nickle handle, not to be labled as a compulsive gambler like many will do. and it is not greed that will lead one to play. I know a couple that won 25,000 on a KENO ticket and didnt even know they won untill someone came up and told them, they used everybit of the money for their daughters college. Its funny how many will say its evil untill someone wins and used the monay for good reasons, then its called a blessing. wasnt it a blessing to begin with? Dan I dont want to say more just on the fact I dont want to be seen as trying to push Gambling....more to come...next page

#40  Posted by Darrel Robertson  |  Friday, July 01, 2011at 11:28 PM

....Part 2.. Because I truly believe that "Yet true godliness with contentment is itself great wealth" 1 Timothy 6:6 ...when I play I dont expect great wealth to be achieved, nor do I expect to become rich, because being a child of God entitles me to the greatest riches one can have.

Now you ask 20 dollars for a lottery ticket, or food on table?

Dan I vote down every lottery measure that comes my way because I know there are thoes that want to live in fantisy land so to speek. and in no way will I ever advocate putting a lottery ticket before a hungry mouth....I read sports magazines every now and then, and mainly when I do there is only one article that I find intresting and pay over 5 dollars for that.....so yes I will forgo the magazine and play the lottery ticket for 5 dollars that is my limit if God chooses to bless me then he will do it for 5 dollars. God is the blessed controller of ALL THINGS, even the lottery, I am not trying to TEST GOD as some will say because he told Paul "My grace is sufficient for you" 1 Cor 12:9... I can only say if the Lord told the best Preacher that walked the face of this earth that, its good enough for me also.

And about this Gambling is a sign of lazyness, not true from what I have seen I know very causual Gamblers that are very hard working people but do to the fact that many who are on welfare looking for a handout because they do not want to work, look for the lottery for a quick fix, so to speek and will spend most of their welfare check trying to "get rich quick" and that I will agree is not right. that is one reason why I vote the lottery down and I think we can all agree our wellfare system in this country is a joke anyways.

DAN Lord Bless I have enjoyed this, I can tell by the way you addressed me with a question, that his Love is upon you, and that in itself is to be admired.

#41  Posted by Rebecca Schwem  |  Saturday, July 02, 2011at 8:47 AM

Darrel, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your comments to Dan. You have a very impressive testimony and experiences that, it's my guess, many will relate.I imagine if you were to write a book, your book might be titled "A Funny Thing Happened While on My Way Seeking God".

I would like to ask you for a favor, if you have the time? Now that we have the background and how you went from one place to another, will you put in bullet points, a list of why moderate gambling is not a sin? You can leave out the obvious, that it is not mentioned specifically in the bible. I could do that but then some might say I'm manipulating your own testimony and or words and beliefs.

I don't know if you realize that, because of your testimony, you are a very influence Christian man. The saved, the unsaved that have questions but hesitate to ask will look to you, will read your comments to help them understand the things of God.So if you could summarize what your gambling beliefs are in a short list, that might help.

I really commend your efforts to follow the Holy Spirit as He led you out of your former church and denomination. That's rarely an easy move to make. And then you had an opportunity to go to bible college and took advantage of that. Very commendable. Thank you for your testimony.It does help often if we know a person's history, at least some of it, doesn't it?

#43  Posted by Dan Wilson  |  Saturday, July 02, 2011at 11:20 AM

If I were to write a book about God's Word and what God says in his Word. I must be careful not to use my own wisdom with adding and subtraction of God's Word. Again several people said in earlier in blog that would God be pleased with one that gambles. Hmm. I agree God would not...

#44  Posted by Rebecca Schwem  |  Saturday, July 02, 2011at 12:41 PM

I agree with you, Dan about gambling. But I was speaking about Darrel's personal experiences, his testimony at length, being in book form.I am able to separate out Darrel's and my differences on gambling and debate our differences with vigor and still appreciate his journey.I think he might appreciate mine as well.The thing of it is, we are forever on this journey if we are truly seeking holiness. Aren't we always learning and struggling with something? Doesn't each of us have a thorn in the flesh?

"So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong." 2 Corinthians 12:7-10

#45  Posted by Dan Wilson  |  Saturday, July 02, 2011at 1:42 PM

You did well with the posts, Rebecca. Smiles.

#46  Posted by Rudi Jensen  |  Saturday, July 02, 2011at 2:16 PM

#Darrel Robertson

Man, I would like go fishing with you to Alaska. But better still, I just want to please my Lord.

When I go trough your posts, there seems to be something important missing. I do not say you are missing it, only that I can't see it.

It is repentance and obedience.

Jesus is God, He is building His Kingdom. We are the stones. And no, I'm not talking about a Social Gospel.

My background is not much different from yours, I also came out of a Pentecostal church many years ago. I had a wrong view on freedom. Real freedom is to obey Christ. You should know that as a former Navy Seal. Risking your life for a cause, but His cause is so much greater.

Jesus talks a lot about this evil world system, and warns us about not to shrink back. Have you noticed the urgency communicated in the Bible? The wrath of God on ungodly men, doing ungodly things?

We are in a war, a war for the Truth. Maybe I'm wrong Darrel, but I read from you, that because you are free, you are free to do what you want, but the fact is, that we are either slaves of sin or slaves of righteousness.

Rebecca is right, where are the fruits? Who are you fighting for? What truth are you defending? Just curious. Do you have some vital doctrines?

#47  Posted by Darrel Robertson  |  Saturday, July 02, 2011at 3:09 PM

post #41 Posted by Rebecca Schwem..

Rebecca thank you for your uplifting statements... but one must understand that I WILL NOT IN no way state the reasons why Casual or very little Gambling is OK...because to the rehab cronic born again Gambler it is not Ok and I will not subject him or her to this. and also I hold John Macarthur and GTY to the most hig standards in their effort to bring the name of our Lord to his utmost Glory...no mater what I say Rebecca there will be thoes that will take me for one who is imoral or one who has a imature Christian view of things, there are thoes who think going to movies are a sin, playing Golf on Sunday is a sin, Drinking a beer or a glass of wine is a sin, smoking a cigar is a sin, they need to take that up with Phill and ask him why spurgeon did it, and for thoes on here I back up spurgeon on that subject although he did leave the door open to thoes of the Sanhedrin influance really tried to nail him on that mater.

To really understand any subject containing sin we must, I believe do a study on SIN, and then do study on EVIL which is ironic because its LIVE spelled backwards. I did and what I came up with would supprise many and there is just not that much room for it on here...many on here have SIN all out of contex....I have just recently found out Rebecca that by talking to a very well known family Counselor and family psychologists who are the most they see as patients?.....not drug addicts, not compulsive Gamblers, not cronic smokers.....Pastors wives!...YEP that floored me also they are the ones who has to see their Husbands suffer hardship or who devout all their being to the Church and have nothing left over for their wives, and if the wife says anything the are accused of tearing down their Husband ministry, which in all is The lords anyway.

Its the Church dirty little secret that is kept in secret. my wife and I KNOW because as elders we delt with it and we run into them every now and then in Mexico, and they tell us they are there because of the wife needs to be taken away and smothered with love and to have a wild time because she was so neglected in the Church. why do I say this? because thoes men and Church leaders that go off on certian sins like gambling and such, neglect the most presious gift given to them, THEIR WIFE. and is leading to a divorce or infedelity, you can read about it everyday.....boy I will be raked over the coals for this I am sure, but I have said enough about spinning a slot machine wheel every now and then. any more and I would be doing GTY and my Lord a disjustice....Lord Bless

#48  Posted by Rebecca Schwem  |  Saturday, July 02, 2011at 4:49 PM

Darrel, I wouldn't be too concerned about what others think. Not at our age. If we speak the truth and do so with gentleness and respect while being bold enough to not compromise it or sugarcoat it, then we have done what we should.The hearer gets to choose if he wants it straight up or diluted. The truth so often will cause conflict and our Lord knows our thoughts and intent.

I hope you will reconsider. You have commented much and it's been all a good read. But I am not certain I could tell anyone exactly why you take the position you do. And I really do want to understand. You have many interesting experiences and a colorful life. Plus, the big added bonus....you have had the privilege of doing biblical studies.... extensively so. I'm trying not to covet what you have been so privileged to do. I'm picking your brain and just know you can tell me specific doctrine to go along with your convictions. I don't want to leave any stone unturned.

I have been as guilty as the next telling another in this series what they said or meant. I know I need to rearrange my words and say it another way. Such as,"It's sounds as if you are saying.....are you?" or perhaps,"Did you mean this or that?" or "Did you mean to say that?" before I pull the trigger.I think the best approach is to ask a brother or sister to explain further, to ask for more or do the opposite and ask for a condensed list of doctrine you believe that supports your position, which is what I am trying to do now.

So please, go out on a limb and reconsider my request.Just be very methodical about it, include scripture and I will look them up and ponder the matter and see how they relate.Please ask the Holy Spirit to guide you and help you with this list.

#49  Posted by Darrel Robertson  |  Saturday, July 02, 2011at 5:23 PM

post #47 Rudi Jensen

We are in a war, a war for the Truth. Maybe I'm wrong Darrel, but I read from you, that because you are free, you are free to do what you want, but the fact is, that we are either slaves of sin or slaves of righteousness.

Rebecca is right, where are the fruits? Who are you fighting for? What truth are you defending? Just curious. Do you have some vital doctrines?

See Rebecca what did I tell you ...I dont believe I ever said I was free to sin...that is what Rudi said and I guess if out of what i said I am condemened with I have no fruits, and I am a slave of sin...then this discussion is usless....I just thought I would bring my thoughts and how my Lord is leading me...I never thought I would have to defend my faith in front of Christians If Phil wants to run a blog and have everyone agree with what he says then go for it....Lord Bless

#50  Posted by Dan Wilson  |  Saturday, July 02, 2011at 5:24 PM

Jesus drank wine. but some good thoughts you have about study what sin is. Good to know things.

#51  Posted by Dan Wilson  |  Saturday, July 02, 2011at 6:14 PM

Happy 4th of July! and I agree we need to take time to read God's word and pray what right or wrong. Trust Jesus. Smiles.