Beer, Bohemianism, and True Christian Liberty
Tuesday, August 09, 2011
by John MacArthur
If everything you know about Christian living came from blogs and websites in the young-and-restless district of the Reformed community, you might have the impression that beer is the principal symbol of Christian liberty.
For some who self-identify as "Young, Restless, and Reformed," it seems beer is a more popular topic for study and discussion than the doctrine of predestination. They devote whole websites to the celebration of brewed beverages. They earnestly assure one another "that most good theological discussion has historically been done in pubs and drinking places." They therefore love to meet for "open dialog on faith and culture" wherever beer is served—or better yet, right at the brewery. The connoisseurs among them serve their own brands and even offer lessons in how to make home brew.
It's clear that beer-loving passion is a prominent badge of identity for many in the YRR movement. Apparently beer is also an essential element in the missional strategy. Mixing booze with ministry is often touted as a necessary means of penetrating western youth culture, and conversely, abstinence is deemed a "sin" to be repented of.
After all, in a culture where cool is everything, what could be a better lubricant for one's testimony than a frosty pint?
Of course, beer is by no means the only token of cultural savvy frequently associated with young-and-restless religion. All kinds of activities deemed vices by mothers everywhere have been adopted as badges of Calvinist identity and thus "redeemed": tobacco, tattoos, gambling, mixed martial arts, profane language, and lots of explicit talk about sex.
Cast a disapproving eye at any of those activities, and you are likely to be swarmed by restless reformers denouncing legalism and wanting to debate whether it’s a “sin” to drink wine or smoke a cigar. But without even raising the question of whether this or that specific activity is acceptable, indifferent, or out-and-out evil, we surely ought to be able to say that controlled substances and other symbols of secular society's seamy side are not what the church of Jesus Christ ought to wish to be known for. In fact, until fairly recently, no credible believer in the entire church age would ever have suggested that so many features evoking the ambiance of a pool hall or a casino could also be suitable insignia for the people of God.
It is puerile and irresponsible for any pastor to encourage the recreational use of intoxicants—especially in church-sponsored activities. The ravages of alcoholism and drug abuse in our culture are too well known, and no symbol of sin’s bondage is more seductive or more oppressive than booze. I have ministered to hundreds of people over the years who have been delivered from alcohol addiction. Many of them wage a daily battle with fleshly desires made a thousand times more potent because of that addiction. The last thing I would ever want to do is be the cause of stumbling for one of them.
Besides, deliberately cultivating an appetite for beer or a reputation for loving liquor is not merely bad missional strategy and a bad testimony; it is fraught with deadly spiritual dangers. The damage is clearly evident in places where the strategy has been touted. Darrin Patrick, who helped pioneer “Theology at the Bottleworks,” acknowledges the gravity of the problem:
As I coach and mentor church planters and pastors, I am shocked at the number of them who are either addicted or headed toward addiction to alcohol. Increasingly, the same is true with prescription drugs. One pastor I know could not relax without several beers after work and could not sleep without the aid of a sleeping pill. [Church Planter (Wheaton: Crossway, 2010), 51]
In biblical times, wine was necessary for health reasons. The risk of amoebae and parasites in drinking water could be significantly reduced or eliminated by mixing the water with a little wine (1 Timothy 5:23). The result was a greatly diluted wine that had virtually no potential for making anyone drunk. Purified tap water and refrigeration make even that use of wine unnecessary today.
Contrary to the current mythology, abstinence is no sin—least of all for someone devoted to ministry (Leviticus 10:9; Proverbs 31:4; Luke 1:15). It is, of course, a sin to give one’s mind over to the influence of alcohol or to bedeck one’s reputation with deliberate symbols of debauchery. As a matter of fact, drunkenness and debauchery are the very antithesis of Spirit-filled sanctification (Ephesians 5:18)—and men who indulge in them are not qualified to be spiritual leaders.
Yes, I realize Jesus Himself was referred to by His enemies as "a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners" (Matthew 11:19). But He was none of the things that expression implied—nor did He seek such a reputation.
He was indeed "a friend of tax collectors and sinners" in the sense that He specialized in lifting them up out of the miry clay and setting their feet on a rock. But He did not adopt or encourage their lifestyle. He did not embrace their values or employ expletives borrowed from their vocabulary in order to win their admiration or gain membership in their fraternity. He confronted their wickedness and rebuked their sins as boldly as He preached against the errors of the Pharisees (Matthew 18:7-9).
Note, too, that He ate and drank with Pharisees (Luke 7:36) as readily as He ate and drank with publicans. The only significant difference was that the typical tax collector was more inclined to confess his own desperate need for divine forgiveness than the average self-righteous Pharisee (Mark 2:16-17; Luke 18:1-14).
But there is no suggestion in Scripture that Jesus purposely assumed the look and lifestyle of a publican in order to gain acceptance in a godless subculture. He didn't.
This tendency to emblazon oneself with symbols of carnal indulgence as if they were valid badges of spiritual identity is one of the more troubling aspects of the YRR movement's trademark restlessness. It is wrong-headed, carnal, and immature to imagine that bad-boy behavior makes good missional strategy. The image of beer-drinking Bohemianism does nothing to advance the cause of Christ's kingdom.
Slapping the label “incarnational” on strategies such as this doesn’t alter their true nature. They have more in common with Lot, who pitched his tent toward Sodom, than with Jesus, who is “holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens” (Hebrews 7:26).
Real Christian liberty is not about flouting taboos and offending conventional notions of propriety. The liberty in which we stand begins with full indemnity from the law's threats and condemnation—meaning we are at peace with God (Romans 5:1; 8:1). Christian liberty also removes the restrictions of the law's ceremonial commandments (Colossians 2:16-17)—freeing us from asceticism, superstition, sensuality, and "human precepts and teachings" (vv. 18-23).
But sober-minded self-control and maturity are virtues commanded and commended by Scripture; these are not manmade rules or legalistic standards. As a matter of fact, one of the main qualifications for both deacons and elders in the church is that they cannot be given to much wine. In other words, they are to be known for their sobriety, not for their consumption of beer.
It should not take a doctor of divinity to notice that Scripture consistently celebrates virtues such as self-control, sober-mindedness, purity of heart, the restraint of our fleshly lusts, and similar fruits of the Holy Spirit's sanctifying work in our lives. Surely these are what we ought hold in highest esteem, model in our daily lives, and honor on our websites, rather than trying so hard to impress the world with unfettered indulgence in the very things that hold so many unbelievers in bondage.

#1 Posted by
Rebecca Schwem | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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2:24 PM
OH, WOW! Pastor John, tell it like it is!
I have had trouble lately with church groups that wear special vests and tattoos in order to go where they claim others would not be allowed. All done to share the gospel, they say. Even the women that go along are dressed for the part including tattoo's known as sleeves.
So it got me to thinking. What if God called them to do missionary work in a country, with a tribe where tattoos would get them killed and all those with them? Why don't they see that their permanent tattoos excludes others they might have been able to witness to?
Why don't they care that when they get on an elevator with their tattoos and rings in their lips and ears that some lady with her four year old daughter might be frightened enough to want to get off? Don't they count? There goes a missed opportunity to spread the Gospel.
Why don't they dress in a way that boldly speaks about who they are? Why don't they think that the "group" they want to infiltrate won't think more highly of them, won't see them more courageous if they go dressed more benign, more conservatively? Why aren't they concerned that the "group" will think they are mocking them? Why don't they depend on God to make a way and depend on Him for protection like all the other missionaries do? Why don't they think the "group" will see Jesus as weak, a conformist?
I don't recall Jesus changing His style, His dress, His speech, His delivery of the Gospel in order to gain entrance anywhere. In fact, I think it got Him more attention....His nerve to go as He truly was, where no other man dare go.
Here I go offending some but it appears to me that some use the Gospel as a way to dress and live a rebellious lifestyle. It has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with manners or customs and doing what the "natives" do. This has nothing to do with taking your shoes off before you enter a home. This is living so you "blend" in with the others. Jesus stood out. He did not blend in.
#2 Posted by
Jerry Vines | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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2:29 PM
Dear John. Thank you so much for this article. I'm glad you have addressed this issue. This kind of thing has become an issue in our SBC life. I shudder to think of the young pastors who will influence thousands, and perhaps themselves and their own children, toward alcohol. You and I have seen a lifetime of the terrible results of playing with that adder. Keep up the good work. Your friend, Jerry Vines
#3 Posted by
Sena Gbesemete | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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2:33 PM
Thank you ever so much for this. I have always upheld all your points but i have one question. I have read this question before and noone has answered it. Paul circumsized Timothy in order to reach the Jews right? Does that not relate to culture identity? I could find theologically the answer to why Paul asked the women to cover their heads but with the circumsicion one......i am slighty confused. I know he did it to prevent the lack of it from becoming a stumbling block to present the gospel. I reckon that if he didnt, the door wouldnt have been opened. So his mind was definately on presenting the gospel but in order to do this, he had to identify with the jews culturally. Any feedback on how this situation differs from fitting in to present the gospel? This does not negate that i totally accept everything you have said as my point of view but this one scripture has had me in a dilemma.
Thanks Pastor John for your unwavering serving of God in presenting the truth.
#4 Posted by
Amanda Thompson | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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2:35 PM
Thank you so much for writing this series! It has addressed many issues and questions that are SO important for us to consider. THANK YOU for providing a solid, Biblical voice on these matters. I so look forward to the rest of the series.
#5 Posted by
Leah Laessig | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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2:40 PM
It is such sad thing when a man is so surrendered to the pride of his “Christian Liberty” that it has such complete rule over his heart, and he can no longer surrender to the Lordship of his Savior.
#7 Posted by
Alexander Jordan | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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3:04 PM
Thank you Pastor MacArthur, for this wise counsel and corrective. Christian liberty should be used carefully so we are sober-minded and ready to take on our appointed tasks. I know in my flesh I am very weak and I have struggled with addictive behavior. So I agree it is foolish to flirt with a behavior known to shipwreck the lives of both unbelievers and believers. Also, so long as we're courting favor with the world (in the name of liberty), we're being sidetracked from our true mission-- proclaiming the gospel and adorning it with a pure lifestyle.
#8 Posted by
Josué Morissette | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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3:05 PM
This is a very good issue to discuss, because even older pastor, even though they don't do it themselves, they don't see anything wrong with the public drinking of wine and beer by Church leaders.
My wife and I decided that we had to leave a Church, when we received a less than satisfying answer from the pastor when we asked him why one of the Church ministry was using a "wine and cheese" and a "poker night" to raise funds. It just so happens that the person in charge of that ministry was never shy about the fact that he drinks beer. In fact he put pictures on a popular social website of him and other men drinking beer at his 2 year old daugther's birthday party. This was a little much for us and the pastor of the Church didn't seem to see anything wrong with all this.
We were thinking what kind of testimony is that? Talk about giving people a reason to criticize the Church. This is beyond Christian liberty, what about your weaker brother, someone whose just came out of alcoholism or gambling.
I'm not sure that these people are ready to let go of somethings. They don't mind adding on Christ to their lives instead of replacing everything by Him. I think it's not only to impress others or to attract people to Jesus that they do all this. It might just be that these people just really like do to all these things and they found the perfect avenue to excuse themselves. From seeing all the talk about these things, it almost looks like these things have become idols. Like those who use grace as a license, they use liberty as a way to excuse all those behaviors.
Thanks pastor John for a really good insight on the subject.
#9 Posted by
Dan Wilson | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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3:22 PM
I have a brother who is a pastor, he drinks a can a beer 4 times a week. If I visit him, what advice do you have? If I drink, I may encourage him. I don't want to be at fault? I don't even like the taste of beer myself. I have a allergy reaction to it. It makes my face break out in a rash.. True..
#10 Posted by
Trent Whalin | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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3:25 PM
I have a question, kind of lengthy but bear with me:
Is martial arts a sin? I got out of it 8 years ago, but almost become a black belt. I transferred a McDojo (basically where one pays for a black belt in a couple years) for the last year and dropped out for that reason. I would like to get back to a true martial arts system, mostly for self-defense and conditioning.
Is that a sin? Now as for the cage-fighting mixed martial arts junk, again it's self defense and conditioning sometimes. But in tournaments and stuff like that, it's wrong. Even Bruce Lee and great martial arts masters see that fighting as a joke and not what true martial arts is about.
Now granted, these people practiced it as a religion mixing it with Buddhism and Taoism. That's wrong I know.
I remember back in the day when I used to watch the 700 Club, Robertson said that if you can punch someone through a brick wall it's demonic. That is also wrong, I have studied the body and what strength is, it's possible without demonic help and only pure strength. Of course people should refrain from doing it anyway.
I am giving out the background for you guys to see whether or not it is a sin. It's very misconstrued in the Christian community.
#11 Posted by
Rebecca Schwem | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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3:31 PM
#3, Sena. God Bless Timothy for going along with it. There was a time, circumcision was required. Then, no longer were we under The Law. But that didn't mean that it was an altogether wrong practice, is my best guess?
And consider that Timothy could go anywhere and it was not obvious to others nor had it ever been a custom that was offensive to other people groups, not a stumbling block as far as I know. To endure such a procedure, Timothy must have truly wanted to not offend (which is very different than conforming)and truly had compassion on a people that were stuck in the Old Law.
I don't know if that is a right answer but all that could come up with at this time. Good question!
#12 Posted by
Chris Lemi | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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3:35 PM
Where do we draw the line at smug, Pharisee-like self rightousness just because a Christian decides to be a teetotaler? If you have a drinking problem, and your drinking brings dishonor to Jesus Christ, then you should NOT drink.
#13 Posted by
Steve Bauer | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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3:57 PM
Dr. MacArthur, I want to start by saying that I am very grateful for your ministry and teachings. I do not agree 100% with what you teach, although I would put it somewhere around 90%! On the other hand, issues like this one need not cause divisions between brethren, so I hope what I am about to say will be taken in that spirit.
While I agree that modern alcohol (mass produced for profit off of those who are drunkards) has become a scourge and I also agree that we should not be "of the world" (getting drunk to reach drunks...), I do not see alcohol as evil. Alcohol is inherently amoral (without morals). I have had several great conversations on Scripture and the Gospel with a good microbrew in my hand. On the other hand, drunkeness is something we are told to have no part of.
The key for this is really in "moderation." I know that if I have more than one beer, I will get light headed. So, I do not have more than one beer. No problem. The Scripture does not say that beer, wine, cigars, or anything else we can eat or drink that people get upset over, is "deceitfully wicked above all things...who can know it?" It is the human heart that holds that award.
I consume about the equivalent of 6-8 beers in a calendar year. Does that make me evil or unsaved? I don't try to force others to drink it with me, nor do I confront someone who has a beer. I will confront drunkeness, however.
Jesus drank wine - diluted or not. If it is poison, diluting it does not make it less poisonous. Jesus created wine for the wedding at Cana. And wedding parties resulted in huge consuming of wine. So, Scripturally speaking, the issue at hand is drunkeness, not imbibing in alcohol.
One last thing, if I know that a person has a weakness for indulging in the sin of drunkeness, I will not drink around them. I do not want to have a hand in making another stumble.
Thank you again for your obedience in ministry and look forward to more if I survive the scorching from your readers I am about to receive! :)
#15 Posted by
Dan Wilson | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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4:02 PM
Thanks for the post. It's important to know. It's good for a pastor not to get drunk on beer. Amen. Sorry if my posts got mixed up. Sorry.
Seems to me it's a macho thing to do to drink beer.. but with Christ it's different for Christ has no sin. Amen.
#16 Posted by
Mark Cooper | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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5:52 PM
Thank you Pastor John! It wasn't until 2 years ago that I understood what Paul meant by being "all things to all people". You explained it in terms that even this thick skulled guy could understand. Having said that: We've gotta be able to let things go even if they are not sinful to us or listed in the Bible as sinful. We must be careful to not have our brother or sister in Christ fall because of a host of things, including: Alcohol, cigarettes/cigars, tattoos, music, movie choices...etc. Music, for me, can become my god very easily. Having said that, if my listening to secular music would cause someone to fall....Them I've got to be willing to turn it off or pitch it all together. We've always gotta be aware of idols in our lives....These, so-called, Christian liberties, can become out idols in a heartbeat if we're not careful. Of course, let's not be plastic and false...but, let's remember what's most important: A growing relationship with our Saviour Jesus Christ and leading others to him. Let's not spend every moment trying to fit into this world....Let's be counter cultural and have people ask what in the world makes us so different and so at peace in this crazy ol' world. Let's raise the bar a little and not settle for what the TV feeds us as being cool and hip. I think as we dig in the Word our priorities shift and morph. Put the beer down and pick your brother up! God bless you all and God bless Pastor John and GTY for guiding us deeper into God's Word.
#17 Posted by
Greg Moering, Jr. | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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5:53 PM
I must say that if someone is using their Christian liberty to pursue a life of anything but holiness they are in direct opposition to the sacrifice of our Lord. As I've said before, I'm 25 and I am greatly concerned about living pure. Do I always live this way? No. But thank God that He is merciful and is willing and able to cleanse me from my sin. I don't drink alcohol for two reasons: I don't like alcohol and I'm afraid of causing someone to stumble. Personally, I don't find that consumption of alcohol to be in and of itself to be sinful; however, as a Christian in the States I find it to be an unwise decision to make because of the cultural stigma that has been given it here in the USA. And as a Christian if we are going to boast we are to boast in the Lord (Jeremiah 9:23) not in the things we consume. As a younger person I don't see this as a hill to die on in the name of "Christian" liberty. If it means forgoing a beverage to keep a brother or sister from stumbling back into sin or stumbling into sin, then I'll stick to sweet tea (besides sweet tea tastes better :) ). I believe that a great principle in this matter is found in 1 Corinthians 10:23-33. Once more, our liberty is given to serve the Lord, not to pursue our own selfish desires (1 Peter 2:16). We are to be seeking unity in holiness, not trying parade our "liberty" by engaging in debauchery or ignoring the conscience of other believers. Christians are to display holiness (1 Peter 1:16). I thank God for not just permitting me to stay the way I was or just letting me do things my own way. I thank God that He has given a standard and that He empowers me in my pursuit of Him. I hope that I haven't sounded like I'm rambling on.
In Christ,
Greg
p.s.
My wife and I really enjoy and are built up through the ministry of "Grace to You." We thank God for men that are willing to stand up for truth. May God continue to bless "Grace to You" and like ministries.
#18 Posted by
John Mickelson | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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6:06 PM
Where do we draw the line at smug, Pharisee-like self rightousness just because a Christian decides to have a drink?
#19 Posted by
Jeremy Notchick | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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6:12 PM
@Rebecca Schwem,
I understand where you are coming from but I have to tell you that as a fellow brother in Christ you have hurt me by what you have wrote. The fact is that I serve the same Christ that you serve. I have tattoos and piercings and I ride a motorcycle. I belong to a motorcycle ministry and wear a patch proudly on the back of my vest. I understand there are many false converts who give people like me a bad name, but let me assure you, we are loving people and would not ever want to scare anyone. When I am out and about I usually try to go out of my way to be extra nice so that I am approachable even with how I look. I love the Lord and I love to share the Gospel. I work for Living Waters/Way of the Master and my number one goal is to see the lost brought to Christ. We even do ministries to kids at hospital s and minister to them. If there are those that outwardly scare people than maybe they simply are not of the faith to begin with. I would ask you to take the time to examine what you say more carefully before you say it. I know personally that it hurt me, but I didn't want to write back in any type of anger, but instead to try to help you understand so that maybe I can erase some of the accusations you have made about people like me. Anyway, I think it has more to do with people being scared or guarded when it comes to people who are different than them. If you want to, go ahead and add me on Facebook. You will clearly see that not all people that have tattoos and piercings are evil. I would love you to take sometime and look into the matter a little further. Thanks and God Bless
#20 Posted by
John Mickelson | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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6:28 PM
@Jeremy Notchick
Well stated Jeremy.
#21 Posted by
Chris Yarzab | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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6:38 PM
For me. I am a recovering alcoholic who was raised by a functioning alcoholic father. My relationship with my father has been pretty much all but been destroyed because of alcohol consumption and now I watch my father suffering and dying because of his choice early in life to not listen to the pleading of his wife and children when he was still in good health. I play the "what if" game in my head of how things could have been. I shouldn't think in such a manner as I'm now a follower of Christ but it lingers.
#22 Posted by
Rebecca Schwem | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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7:24 PM
#19 Jeremy, you assume I did not think first. I've been thinking abut it for several years. You also assume I have no personal experience with this or right to speak up about it. I do. I am not at liberty right now to name those associations but can tell you I had and have every reason to want to believe their dress is for authentic Christianity. It would serve me well to be able to believe so and be a tremendous comfort to me personally.
I have observed and been tolerant and never really spoken out loud about it until now. John MacArthur has given me the courage to do so. I am as gracious to those that are different from myself as I am to those that I feel compatible with. I have 10 children...been through the teen years ten times and I have 25 grandchildren and 2 great grandchildren. I've seen it all and nothing surprises me. I don't live under a rock.
I am being honest. I'm not a person out to hurt anyone feelings. But if I tip toe around, then you might not know how some of us feel. I don't want to be a proud people. I wear nothing proudly. I'm not even proud of my becoming Christian because, as you know, I did nothing to earn that. Christ picked me. He did it all. I should be going to hell!
Consider this Jeremy. When I was younger, if I dressed like a stripper in order to get other strippers to talk to me, few would consider that wise or God honoring. I believe the power is in God's Word. I don't believe I need to conform. Now you can consider that offensive or you can consider it wisdom.
I'm sorry your feelings are hurt. I'm glad you are a brother in Christ. But you might want to consider my heart and my concerns at the very least. I don't wear tattoos or piercings, I don't wear a vest. So my experience is very different from yours. I have not walked in your shoes and I dare say nor have you walked in mine.I'm not sure we force certain things to be right or fit. We can only do the right thing.
I work very hard now days to make sure I am not a distraction to the Word of God. I think modesty in all things is God honoring. And yet, the culture has changed so, even among Christians, that more Christians are persecuted today for their modesty than those that conform. Doing what you do is far more popular than how I feel.
James 4:17 Romans 12:2
#23 Posted by
Steve Friedrich | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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7:36 PM
Dear Pastor MacArthur,
Fellow Christians are not the enemy. I know and fellowship with very many Christians who occasionally tipple. They are very, very mature and Godly believers that have a somewhat different perspective on this issue than you.
Please remember, our distinctives are just that. Our purpose, however, is the same; to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. Yes, sometimes other Christians do justify actions and practices that are not ultimately justifiable. Let us patiently, kindly and lovingly instruct them and make sure that we do not go beyond that which is written.
Please be kind and generous toward your fellow believers.
Don't forget the words of Luther himself, "Do not suppose that abuses are eliminated by destroying the object which is abused. Men can go wrong with wine and women. Shall we then prohibit and abolish women? The sun, the moon, and the stars have been worshiped. Shall we then pluck them out of the sky?
…see how much he [God] has been able to accomplish through me, though I did no more than pray and preach. The Word did it all. Had I wished I might have started a conflagration at Worms. But while I sat still and drank beer with Philip and Amsdorf, God dealt the papacy a mighty blow."
blessings,
Steve
#24 Posted by
Steve Storage | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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7:38 PM
Are you saying it's wrong for a Christian to drink a beer?
#25 Posted by
Chris Lemi | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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7:48 PM
#18, John Mickelson.
That is what I meant to say. Too bad there is no edit feature on this thing.
#26 Posted by
Jennifer Salisbury | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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7:56 PM
First of all, I can not thank you enough for this ministry. As I child I grew up penecostal and charismatic. To discover this ministry and the life changing TRUTHS of the Word has been more than I can ever express. On to my question, I will try to be brief. My current church has rapidly within the last six months ventured into the "culture assimilation". "All things to all people" (1 Corinthians 9:19) has been preached lately. We have undergone a huge building transformation complete with attractive lighting and a friendly coffee bar. I know what this smacks of and so my husband and I sat down with our pastor the other night. We explained we were unsettled by some of the changes. He was gracious in explaining to us how we got where we are. He admitted that we are in dangerous territory (as a church) and that we can't take our Christian liberty too far. BUT, there is a whole generation of 18-25 year olds that he just doesn't know how to reach. I countered with Acts and that adding to the the body is the work of the Lord we must just preach the uncompromised Gospel. I truly believe the Word of God is not culturally irrelevant. It is a superficial argument to them (we mustn't make them dress like us, but we must go to them not make them come to us.) I think he is walking a tight rope biblically and I'm concerned. He stated that God gives us alot of liberity in how we present the Gospel. I'm confused by this statement. I know we are graciously given liberity (1 Corinthinans 10:23) but how does this fit within the area of evangelizing? I just don't see Jesus or the apostles pandering to the culture. What are the boundaries for how far you can go in trying to reach the lost?
#27 Posted by
Chris Lemi | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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8:00 PM
There's too much fingerpointing at how others live and not enough concern for our own personal walk with the Lord. If someone is a Christian and believe that it is best for them not to drink, then that is fine, but the legalists (yes it is legalism), want to insist their own beliefs upon others, and teetotalling just isn't Biblical. Scripture condemns drunkenness and excess, not alcohol usage. But on the flip side of that, I don't believe in the bravado like promotion of Alcohol usage that you find with certain Christian denominations. Obviously, a lot of people cannot responsibly use alcohol and Christians should always proceed with discernment in this area.
#28 Posted by
Micah Marchewitz | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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8:43 PM
#18 John, are you stating that Macarthur's article is smug and pharissee like or am I misunderstanding it?
I myself don't drink. I have not had anything harder to drink then a cup of coffee in almost 15 years. I got clean when I was 18 from all sorts of chemicals including alcohol. Since I have been a Christian I have been called smug and legalistic by other Christians because of the fact I don't drink and don't allow it in my home. I have a very closed minded opinion about anyone drinking alcohol. Not just Christians.
As far as the tatoo's and piercings go, I am heavily tatooed (no piercings though) All my tatoo's I got prior to my conversion. I deeply regret my tatoo's for a number of reasons, some of which Rebecca mentioned in post #1. There have been times where it has stood as a barrier to people I could be presenting the gospel to. My tatoo's were all about looking a certain way and maintaing a certain image and attracted a certain crowd. In my experience tatoo's are all about pleasing the flesh and have nothing to do with glorifying our Lord and Savior.
Thank you for this series GTY. God bless!! Micah
#29 Posted by
Kerry Halpin | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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9:06 PM
#19 (Jeremy)
I'm sorry but I have to agree mostly with Rebecca on this, but let's make sure we are clear, I would agree that getting tattoos and piercings is sinful. However, I think the rebuking of a brother in Christ regarding such things only applies to tattoos and such received after conversion. Certainly we are all sinners saved by grace and have utterly sinful pasts, but to continue in sin after conversion is contrary to scripture. In 1 Peter 1:14, Peter tells us that to continue in our former sins after conversion is due to ignorance of God's Word. Leviticus 19:28 specifically prohibits tattooing and piercings, and more generally prohibits following the practices of the heathens (unbelievers). 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 confirms that those practices we did before being saved are no longer to be done.
In 1 Corinthians 6:12, Paul states that any indulgence of a Christian is technically lawful, as Christ has forgiven for all of our sins once and for all, but let's expand upon this a bit. Clearly we are not to continue in sin as is made clearly throughout all scripture, Romans 6:1-2. Since obvious sins (explicit breaking of God's laws) are just that, obvious, there was no need for Paul to say "that's bad". Paul here, IMO, is speaking about the "gray area" so many Christians take advantage of in the name of Christian liberty, both sins not defined in Scripture, and certain acts of the law that Christ gave permission to the apostles to declare no longer necessary (circumcision/foods etc.).
Certainly we all still commit sin, and will continue until Christ's return (but surely with less frequency as we mature in Christ). So, as 1 Peter 4:15 makes clear, it is not proper to judge a brother based on a single sin (also Romans 14:10,13), for only God knows our hearts. Also, the rest of Romans 14 actually re-emphasizes Christian liberty, stating that where two believers differ, over debatable conduct, the more liberal is not to condemn the more conservative, and the more conservative is not to judge the more liberal, but Romans 14:20-21 does put the burden of concession on the more liberal believer.
All that being said, I think tattoos and piercings fall under explicit sin as defined in Leviticus 19:28, so yes, it is sinful to continue in such practices after being saved.
#30 Posted by
Kerry Halpin | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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9:25 PM
#23 (Steve) & #25 (Chris)
While I'm not specifically speaking about you're posts, you both have mentioned sentiments that I have heard on this site and elsewhere that I think needs to be addressed.
I hear a lot of "there's too much concern with what other professed believers are doing and we should focus on reaching the lost". I'm failing to understand how those two efforts are conflicting. All believers should be concerned with maintaining the truth of the Word, and I have yet to see once instance where being concerned with the behavior of the church interferes with reaching the lost. Remember Jesus overturning the tables? Remember Paul rebuking Peter? Certainly maintaining a pure and distinct identitiy separate from sinners should be the goal of the church and is tantamount in our testimony to the world.
Statements like that seem to me to be a deflection response to conviction.
#31 Posted by
Jeremy Notchick | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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9:54 PM
#22 @Rebecca Schwem,
I totally understand what you were saying. And yes, I praise God as well that He chose me when I was incapable of choosing Him. How undeserving we all are.
You didn't hurt me with you being outspoken about this, but rather that most of your comment was geared toward one thing... tattoos, piercings, and vests with patches. From what I gather you too, as I have, had your fair share of run ins with false converts who say they are Christians and dress like that but yet have a "tough guy" attitude and don't even share their faith. I am not afraid to name names and I have mostly experienced this from Bikers For Christ M/M. I have been hurt by that world to.
Also, if I had offended you or made you feel like I was implying you have been "living under a rock" please forgive me. That is not at all what I had meant. Trust me, I had a background in immodesty, an addiction to pornography and I am so grateful for modest Christian women. My wife is extremely modest compared to other women her age and it is more attractive than showing to much. I think that modesty brings glory to God.
I get what you are saying by the stripper thing, but I think it is not a valid point because I do not dress like this or have tattoos to "fit in." I don't even go to biker events or anything. I only dress like this for me personally. I am a firm believer that the Gospel does not need any help. I don't need to look a certain way and fit in to preach the Gospel. In the same way, I don't need to dress or look a certain way to be a true convert and follower of our Savior. Just look at John the Baptist. He was a wild man, ate locusts and honey and wore camel hair and a leather belt. He probably scared some people away to, but that didn't stop him from being one of the best examples we have of an open air preacher. He also was chosen to baptize Christ. I think that if I dress this way it does not hinder the furtherance of the Gospel.
And actually, doing what I do is far less popular than the world I live in. I have been blacklisted, a outcast in the Biker community because I preach the Gospel and practice Biblical Evangelism. Most of them hate me because I use the law instead of telling people "God has a wonderful plan for your life, do you know Jesus?" I have considered where you are coming from, and again, I am sorry if I have offended you at all. My intention was only to expose you to the fact that there are some people you described that truly only seek to please Christ and put no weight on the opinion of man.
Thanks for responding and God Bless you Sister :)
#32 Posted by
Diana Hayes | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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10:01 PM
Thank you Pastor MacArthur, Phil Johnson, and others who have attributed to this series. The sad thing is seeing those in the faith whose conscience's were seared through listening to other's take on these issues. Not knowing what to believe, they went ahead and joined them at the pub or drinking, against their consciences. This is what angers me the most about all this. Weaker actually true believers are being led into sin by others using liberty as a cloak for licentiousness. I have one thing to say to those who do this, "When you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ." 1 Corinthians 8:13
#33 Posted by
Corey Key | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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10:05 PM
Yes Pastor Mac Arthur, excellent!!!
And by the way, God bless you, and praise the Lord you are streaming the Truth Matters Conference for FREE!!! I'd been praying to go, knowing it will cost money I really did not have. Hallelujah! Grace and peace to you and the GTY staff, thanks!
#34 Posted by
Corey Key | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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10:11 PM
Replying to Steve Bauer's post; where in the bible did Jesus drink wine? So many people state this, yet I still have not found where it states that Jesus drank wine? Anyone, if you have the bible reference please advise, thaks
#35 Posted by
Chris Lemi | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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10:25 PM
Kerry H. #30
Sure, I agree with maintaining the Truth of the Word, and with that being said, teetotalism (abstaining from Alcohol) is not Biblical. The Bible condemns drunkenness and debauchery, not alcohol usage. I guess alcohol usage is a favorite "pet sin" to impose legalism upon the brethren because its a common vice out there that is abused by way too many people. But people also forget that food is abused by way too many people as well, but you don't hear too many people crying out about this outrage because there are more people in church with a problem in overindulging in food than there are alcoholics and drunkards, yet I see a lack of absence in rebuking these brothers and sisters for their reckless overindulgence in food. So I guess if we're going to be legalistic, lets at least maintain some consistency across the board. There's way too many Christian brothers and sisters out there with a 40+inch waist, that is extremely unhealthy. See, I can impose that legalism just as easily as the next guy.
#36 Posted by
Micah Marchewitz | Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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11:49 PM
#35 Chris
You state that "teetotalism (abstaining from Alcohol) is not Biblical."
Are you stating that people who abstain from alcohol are not being biblical?
I usually don't get to invovled in these blogs anymore because in the end it usually ends up in huge debates that last for weeks and I would much rather be pursuing my studies or spending time with my kids then devote a bunch of time to this but I am suprised with how defensive people are getting about thier alcohol use so I'll give my two cents for what it is worth. Alcohol is a drug. Next to tabbacco it is probably the most abused drug world wide. It is the only drug on earth that the physical withdrawls can actually kill you. I don't think I am posting anything that anyone does not already know, and I don't think that was the point of Macarthur's post, he never actually says having a beer is sinful. He states that alcohol (among other wordly things he lists) should not be a popular topic for discussion and should not be what the body of Christ is known for. Makes you wonder why some have gotten immediately defensive about drinking? Chris, If you haven't already go back and read the first two paragraphs, the last sentence Macarthur writes states that the YRR's "abstinence is deemed a sin to be repented of" which is the impression I got from you with your #35 post. I would also encourage you to follow some of the links and read up on some of the articles. Would you be ok with a pastor who fasted for 40 days from food and ONLY drank beer? I would have a serious issue if it was my pastor doing something like that. I don't believe that makes me legalistic at all and I didn't think that Macarthur came acroos as legalistic or condemming in his post. The last two paragraphs sum up the whole post nicely. The virtues he lists in the last paragraph are what every Christian should long for. God bless
#37 Posted by
Rudi Jensen | Wednesday, August 10, 2011
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12:15 AM
Comment deleted by user.
#38 Posted by
Jeremy Notchick | Wednesday, August 10, 2011
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12:24 AM
#29 @Kerry Halpin,
Wuill definitely respond to you tomorrow. Gotta get to bed, but assuming you follow the old testament laws in Leviticus because that's what you use to justify that I am sinning than would I be correct in saying you stone people to death who Blaspheme God's name right? Also you make sure that women don't go outside during a certain time of month right. Leviticus also says that is sin. Will reply in length tomorrow but thats it for tonight :). God Bless
#39 Posted by
Benjamin Booker | Wednesday, August 10, 2011
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12:24 AM
Am I legalistic if I am not worldly and question those who appear to be in worldly sin?
I thought the Bible taught we are to be holy & Christ-like?
9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
1 Peter 2:9 (NASB95)
6 You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit, 7 so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia. 8 For the word of the Lord has sounded forth from you, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith toward God has gone forth, so that we have no need to say anything. 9 For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven , whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.
1 Thess 1:6-10 (NASB95)
11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
Eph 4:11-16 (NASB95)
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
Heb 7:26 (NASB95)
9 And they sang* a new song, saying,
"Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."
Rev 5:9-10 (NASB95)
15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1 John 2:15 (NASB95)
8 But Daniel made up his mind that he would not defile himself with the king's choice food or with the wine which he drank; so he sought permission from the commander of the officials that he might not defile himself. 9 Now God granted Daniel favor and compassion in the sight of the commander of the officials,
Dan 1:8-9 (NASB95)
Thank you Pastor MacArthur!
#41 Posted by
Taylor Lett | Wednesday, August 10, 2011
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1:39 AM
Rebecca(22) and Kerry(29),
Do these criticisms apply to men like Hudson Taylor, or just men who are involved in biker ministry? How about to suburban soccer moms who drive SUV's? Wealthy business men who buy expensive suits rather than giving to the poor?
To be clear, I am not saying Hudson Taylor sets a biblical precedent, simply that by your definition he was conforming to the pattern of this world by imitating the outward appearance of those 'godless Chinese.'
I think it is more than possible to minister to bikers without looking like one. I would argue against getting a tattoo for ministry purposes, but not from Leviticus(read this article again for reasons not to do that). Instead, I would base the discussion on the superiority of Jesus to my ability to blend into a culture, and on experience building relationships that cross the boundaries of fashion. But you(Kerry) used a passage dealing with the inward man (1 Cor 6:9-11) to outright condemn the outward appearance of someone. That's unjustified, unkind, and actually detrimental to your argument.
#42 Posted by
Sanford Doyle | Wednesday, August 10, 2011
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4:25 AM
I think everyone has heard the expression "you are looking through rose-colored glasses".
We should all be looking through Christ- colored glasses.
All our thoughts,words, and actions should be captive to Christ. What I mean is all our thoughts, words and actions should be filtered through the face of our Lord Jesus Christ.
We need to consciously be thinking: is this thought bringing glory to Christ? Are my words showing the glory of Christ? How about my actions(drinking beer or whatever), are they bringing and showing glory to the Lord?
No one knows the heart of a man except the Spirit in the man.
Remember it is not about you, it's about the glory and honor of our Lord.
Search your heart and your motive. God will.
#43 Posted by
Dan Wilson | Wednesday, August 10, 2011
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4:50 AM
Is it the heart we are to look at not the outward appearance. Maybe one cant get the tattoo off after he came to Christ. But does it matter where one comes from a culture, like Africa, China, and etc. If one wear symbols that offends God, must remove and avoided. but
say, if I want a bible verse on my arm. Is that wrong?? I saw a young man had a bible verse from Isaiah. but do we know if he living for Christ or not. So it should be the heart that matters.. then.. Oh, Jesus wants us to wash inside of us, then clean outside of us.
God bless.
#44 Posted by
Josh Griffis | Wednesday, August 10, 2011
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5:11 AM
"The result was a greatly diluted wine that had virtually no potential for making anyone drunk."
I am extremely grateful to the Lord for His work in and through Pastor MacArthur. The Holy Spirit has done much sanctifying work in my life through the teaching of Pastor MacArthur even though I live on the opposite side of the country. I agree that is is almost always wise and Christ-honoring to avoid the consumption of alcohol in public in our culture (USA), but I don't buy the argument that we shouldn't drink wine because it is no longer necessary for health reasons. If the wine was diluted and there was no risk of getting drunk, then why does Scripture make it abundantly clear that drunkenness is a sin?
#45 Posted by
Bryan Green | Wednesday, August 10, 2011
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5:33 AM
I personally like what Martin Luther has to say on this subject.
"We must, therefore, be on our guard, for the devil is after us, through his apostles, with all his craft and cunning. Now, although it is true, and no one can deny that the images are evil because they are abused, nevertheless we must not on that account reject them, nor condemn anything because it is abused. That would result in utter confusion. God has commanded us not to lift up our eyes unto the sun, etc., that we may not worship them, for they are created to serve all nations.(Deuteronomy 4:19) But there are many people who worship the sun and the stars. Shall we,therefore, essay to pull the sun and stars from the skies? Nay, we will not do it.
Again, wine and women bring many a man to misery and make a fool of him. Shall we, therefore, kill all the women and pour out all the wine?
Again, gold and silver cause much evil, shall we, therefore, condemn them?...
#46 Posted by
Bryan Green | Wednesday, August 10, 2011
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5:33 AM
and...
"Thirdly, there are some who are still weak in faith, who ought to be instructed, and who would gladly believe as we do.But their ignorance prevents them, and if this were faithfully preached to them, as it was to us, they would be one with us.Toward such well-meaning people we must assume an entirely different attitude from that which we assume toward the stubborn.We must bear patiently with them and not use our liberty, since it brings no peril or harm to body or soul, nay, rather is salutary, and we are doing our brothers and sisters a great service besides.But if we use our liberty without need, and deliberately cause offense to our neighbor, we drive away the very one who in time would come to our faith.Thus St.Paul circumcised Timothy because simple-minded Jews had taken offense; he thought, What harm can it do, since they are offended because of their ignorance? ( Acts 16:3) But when, in Antioch, they would insist that he ought and must circumcise Titus, Paul withstood them all and to spite them would not have Titus circumcised. ( Galatians 2:3) And he held his ground. He did the same when St. Peter by the exercise of his liberty caused a wrong conception in the minds of the unlearned. ( Galatians 2:11 ff.) It was on this wise: When Peter was with the Gentiles, he ate pork and sausage with them, but when the Jews came in, he would not touch this food and ate no more with them. (Peter and the Gentiles) Then the Gentiles who had become Christians, thought: Alas! we, too, must be like the Jews, eat no pork and live according to the law of Moses. But when Paul found that it would injure the liberty of the Gospel, he reproved Peter publicly and read him an apostolic lecture, saying: “If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of the Gentiles, why compels you the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?” (Galatians 2:14) Thus we, too, should order our lives and use our liberty at the proper time, so that Christian liberty may suffer no injury, and no offense be given to our weak brothers and sisters who are still without the knowledge of this liberty."
#47 Posted by
Kerry Halpin | Wednesday, August 10, 2011
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6:00 AM
#41 (Taylor)
Are you quoting the wrong passage? 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 most certainly deal with physical external vices, which of course are always driven by inward motives. The whole point of the entire chapter is to live a life apart from the sins one committed in the past.
Also, I am not condemning anyone's outward appearance. I am however, condemning the practice of continuing in sin after being saved.
#38 (Jeremy)
It appears you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Should we not obey the 10 commandments? Should we not belive in the promises God declared in the OT? 2 Timothy 3:16. Paul says in Romans numerous times that we are not under the law but under grace (Romans 6:14), no argument there, but he continues on for the rest of the chapter (Romans 6:15 etc) to say that just because we are free from the bonds of the law, we should not revel in sinfulness.
Romans 3:31, Romans 6:15-16,19, Romans 15:4, 1 John 1:6, 1 John 2:3,4,7
#48 Posted by
Andy K | Wednesday, August 10, 2011
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6:18 AM
I've read a few comments putting words into John's mouth. Did he ever say that having a beer is a sin? No. He criticizes the glorification of beer drinking and flaunting of vices as a badge of honor. It seems that there are many that are jumping to conclusions based only on a short blog article. To anyone truly desiring to hear an in depth biblical examination of alcohol, listen/read the 3 part sermon titled "Be Not Drunk With Wine" on GTY.org. It's excellent and would answer many of the questions posted here.
#49 Posted by
Jason Oesterling | Wednesday, August 10, 2011
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6:26 AM
I have great respect for Dr. MacArthur, and have learned much from him through the years. That's the context for these points of disagreement.
Regarding Paul's recommendation to Timothy that he drink a little wine in 1 Tim. 5:23, Dr. MacArthur writes, "The result was a greatly diluted wine that had virtually no potential for making anyone drunk." The problem with this argument is that it makes nonsense of Paul's command in Ephesians 5:18 to not be drunk with wine, but rather be filled with the Spirit. For Paul's comparison to work, wine must have the potential for behavior-influencing control that Dr. MacArthur wants to minimize in 1 Tim. 5:23. The Greek word for wine is the same in both texts, as it also is in John 2, where Jesus creates it and gives it to the wedding celebrants.
It may surprise some to realize that alcohol is spoken of positively in Scripture more often than negatively. For a solid biblical study of the relevant texts (from someone who himself does not drink alcohol for medical reasons), read Ken Gentry's book "God Gave Wine."
Dr. MacArthur also writes, "... until fairly recently, no credible believer in the entire church age would ever have suggested that so many features evoking the ambiance of a pool hall or a casino could also be suitable insignia for the people of God." It is a bit unfair to lump all of these behaviors - some clearly sinful, others not - all into one category, then say that they stand outside the historical stream of accepted Christian behavior. Let's be fair and deal with the issues individually.
For a light-hearted, buy eye-opening look at the history of alcohol in the church, read Jim West's book "Drinking with Calvin and Luther."
Alcohol addiction is a sin. Alcohol is not sinful. Let's draw lines where Scripture does, but not further.
Respectfully...
#50 Posted by
Rudi Jensen | Wednesday, August 10, 2011
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6:34 AM
By the way, Mary Elizabeth Tyler, I forgot to thank you for your You Tube link. Wonderful.
I used to by soundman in the church, and love all kind of worship music from the heart.
Hear this one on You Tube: O9Czujx1LOc
#51 Posted by
Frank L. Allen Jr. | Wednesday, August 10, 2011
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8:04 AM
Dr. John, may I commend you for sticking to the basic fundamentals of the Christian faith. I grew up in a house where my father was an alcoholic, he loved me and my brother but during his life (deceased) he caused his family some embarrassing situations. I personally drank will I was in the U.S. Navy during Vietnam area, but soon noticed My heavenly father caused me to be sick any time I drank. I understood the message and I heeded the warning and haven't drink any alcohlic beverage in 30 plus years. I discovered I could not witness to anyone if I persisted to drink and with the desire gone it was no problem for me. My mother who was a Godly women had a lot to do with who I am today, I teach SS at my church and I feel a purpose for my exitance. My mother told me years ago I could teach, but I rejected that idea until after she passed away six years ago. Finally in closing I allowed the Holy Spirit to guide my efforts and I have found that joy my mother always spoke of. She knew that joy after teaching for over 50 years at our church. May God continue to bless your minitries.
#52 Posted by
Rebecca Schwem | Wednesday, August 10, 2011
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8:23 AM
#41 Taylor. Would you please reread my first comment, #1 and tell me where you see a criticism other than an observation?
I asked many questions & received no answers. I never said I held my observations to be true. This has been bothering me for a while. Funny it didn't initially. But as time has gone on, it has. Maybe not so funny after all? The easy way would be for me to not rock the boat and remain silent.
Also. I think I did make a clarification about the difference of conforming and showing good taste or manners. I thought I made it clear that doing what another culture does, ie removing shoes before entering one's home, was not the same as conforming. And if there was a biblical reference that removing shoes was sin, I'd say, Keep Your Shoes On, Brother!
As far as soccer moms with big SUV's and business men with expensive suits...we could go on and on and on. None of those things are done in the name of Christ so I'm not addressing them here. My issue is with people that dress in a way in order to be acceptable to a people group and that might be offensive to our Lord, unlike the case with Hudson Taylor. I'm not an expert on Chinese history or culture but I don't think their attire was sinful or questionable by it's own standards or God's?
And Jeremy, #31. First, you did not offend me. I'm not offended or worried or hurt when others speak out. I am losing the ability to think it is about me, even if my name is mentioned. And thanks to Jesus, my conscience is getting bigger, deeper, wider. I'm either growing in Christ or I'm digressing. I don't think it's that I'm digressing because if that was the case, I'd accept what everyone was doing and everyone would have the right answers. So I must be growing?
As far as John the Baptist goes, he was so filled with the Holy Spirit. "And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit,"
Luke 1:41. John the Baptist did not dress to fit into the culture or any culture for that matter. I don't think his dress was an example for us today. Our example was Jesus Christ.1Peter 2:21-25
But, before you say that many of the tattooed and pierced folks have the Holy Spirit too, you and I cannot know one way or the other for sure. We can only know for sure that John the Baptist was and he was handpicked by God before he was even conceived.Luke 1:13-17.
This series has been about maturing and maturity. Popular today are crosses worn as jewelry, not as a sweet sentiment to our Lord.Cool guys wear them too...big ol' crosses on big ol' chains around their necks. Fashionable ladies wear, what would have been in my day considered gaudy, big crosses to match their attire. I like fashion.I had this really big red jeweled one I wore occasionally. The Holy Spirit really convicted me on that one. To use our Lord and His death as a fashion statement was wrong. I tossed it. I'm growing up. After all these years,I'm finally growing up.
#53 Posted by
Marc Yoder | Wednesday, August 10, 2011
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9:32 AM
I'm sure this blog will be well received, and the piling on will begin by everyone who sees this sin in others. I do not drink, but wonder if this message would be as well received if it substituted gluttony for drunkenness.
The day we begin to see our own sin as being as great as the sin we do not struggle with is the day we'll be as concerned about the 5th slice of pizza at the lock-in or the 3rd plate of fried chicken at the picnic as we are about the cooler of beer at the softball game.
When the morbidly obese man in the suit is as quickly identifiable as a Baptist preacher as the beer (or coffee) fanatic is of the Young-Restless-Reformed, we need to look at the plank in our own eye.
#54 Posted by
Matt Rollings | Wednesday, August 10, 2011
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9:53 AM
Be slow to label Dr. MacArthur as a Pharisee who commands abstinence from alcohol. While MacArthur himself is a proponent of abstaining, If you read the article in light of what MacArthur has previously taught in places such as his study Bible (ex. John 2:3) you will discover that the article was not written to convert those who practice moderation to total abstinence but instead to rightfully rebuke children who unknowingly disgrace themselves and the Reformed faith by practicing pragmatism in their evangelism and being known for their championship of mixing drinks rather then maturity in Christ.
#55 Posted by
Marc Lambert | Wednesday, August 10, 2011
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10:14 AM
I had my small wild streak in college. That being said, I have not "partied" in over a decade, and have not even sipped alcohol in nearly 7 years. Despite the fact I rarely bring up the topic, I get more flack from christians who drink than from non-believers. The non-believers usually give a respectful nod to my determination while christians are somehow offended.
This is not a strange thing. The enemy has little need to stir up conflict in the mind of the lost. A believer, however, he seeks to disrupt and cause trouble for the believer specifically and the body of Christ as a whole.
The more mature believers understand the spiritual battles we go through. When a less mature brother/sister reacts with quarrels, tension or lashing out to justify their sin, majoring on minors or creating division in the process, .... those who understand what is really going on need to respond in love and prayer.
I have had many instances where a calm statement of truth in the context of love for the other person had deffused what they were quickly working up to a divisive argument. Even if they did not walk away convinced of their wrong, they did walk away with their bonds to the body of beliers still intact.
#56 Posted by
Keith Stokes | Wednesday, August 10, 2011
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10:33 AM
While those who use the gluttony comparison have some points, and it's true that it is a sin most tolerate and overlook because it does hit so close to home. That is wrong. To tolerate gluttony makes you a companion with it's evil work as well. But I completly understand about the alcohol stance here as well. How many people have ever been killed by being under the influence of 14 pieces of fried chicken? The average non churched person doesn't look twice when they see a Christian going up for his fourth plate of chicken. However,even the most unlearned pagan knows it just doesn't look right for him to be sipping on a beer. I guarantee he thinks what a hypocrite, and there goes his possible christian witness, sin or not. In my opinion, alcohol in what man has used it for is wicked and evil. It about destroyed me years ago and to be honest even looking at this blogs picture( beer tap) gave me the jitters and ugly memories of what alcohol did to me. So God bless people for being labeled "legalist" it may just save some from a life of addiction and torment.
#57 Posted by
Jeremy Notchick | Wednesday, August 10, 2011
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11:26 AM
#52 Rebecca Schwem,
I’m glad I did not offend you or hurt you, that is good. Amen to that, if it is not all about Christ than are we really even in Him. I can tell how important Christ is in your life and I thank God there are sisters like you, not afraid to stand up for something they believe. Even though we might disagree I am still blessed by our conversation. Oh, I definitely believe John the Baptist was born again before he was even born; it clearly shows He leapt for joy in Elizabeth’s womb just by being in the presence of his Savior. I wasn’t trying to claim that John the Baptist dressed that way to fit into culture. That was my whole point that I am trying to convey to you. I am not dressing or looking a certain way to try to fit in with any type of crowd. I am not looking this way for anyone, I am not on this earth to try to please men and how they want me to look. And I am growing up as well. I used to want to get tattoos all over and have piercings everywhere because I thought it looked cool and I would “fit in.” After praying on that and waiting on the Lord I knew that would be the wrong choice, at least for me. I have a piercing on each ear, just one piercing. I have and Alpha and Omega tattoo on my right wrist, I have a cross with the Scripture Rev. 16:15 under it on my right bicep and I have the word Irish on my back between my shoulder blades. The only tattoo that regularly shows is the Alpha and Omega one. Am I going to get anymore tattoos, I don’t know. All I know is that I am not convicted by the ones that I have, and I definitely did not get them to make it “easier” to witness to a certain group of people. If I wanted to fit in with the bikers, which I don’t, than I would simply tell them what they want to hear, “they are sinners, but it’s ok because God has a plan for them and Jesus loves them.” We simply know that what I just said is not biblical and is not the Gospel; therefore I don’t fit in with the people group most associate me with. And believe me, nowhere am I saying that most tattooed and pierced folks have the Holy Spirit. Thanks again and God Bless.