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A Wideness in God’s Mercy?

Sunday, February 28, 2010 | Comments (121)

First, listen to this 10-minute clip:

Launch Player  |  Download  |  Full Sermon

Here's the topic for today's discussion:

These comments by evangelicalism’s most famous evangelist are clearly out of sync with the biblical gospel. And yet, there are many today who can’t seem to figure out what’s true. Others don’t seem to have the will to figure it out—they’ve become indolent and indifferent about truth and error.

Why do many of today’s evangelicals seem to prefer the Dark Ages to the Reformation? Why do they prefer obscurity to clarity, darkness rather than light?


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#1  Posted by Scott Ingram  |  Saturday, February 27, 2010at 9:53 PM

I am truly amazed to hear that Billy Graham would make such a comment. I would like a website or a way to find the article and perhaps hear him say those words. I have seen this nonsensical idea being played out in churches and in the christian media. Chip Ingram says that a person can be a christian and still continue in sin repeatedly. I called him out about it on facebook the other day and he refered me to a video he had on his website. In in he said that christians sometimes have hiccups (this was his reference to SIN) and after this I listened to his show 2 days later and he was preaching about how the reason God saved us was because we were worth being saved and he preached self-esteem to the masses. God saved me through sheer grace. I was unworthy of His Son and yet He gave Himself to save me. Praise Him! not myself! I have read Dr. Graham's book from early in his career "the peace of God". In it he sounds well except for his reference to Catholocism being another form of christianity that is perfectly acceptable. I am sad to hear this is something he would have said. I have had great respect for the man and yet if he chooses to deny the scriptures, I have no more respect for him. i heard a story of how early in his career he made a choice to believe the Bible no matter what and that he credited that decision to his success in ministry. I want to thank you John since i found you on the internet, I have learned quite a bit and I am looking forward to learning more. I am curious though of how this will go over with the black mountain radio station that plays your program that was started by Billy Graham. I guess this explains why they play you at 4:30 in the morning when no one listens. Well, I guess some hear you. That is how I found about you when I had to go into work early one morning. Keep the truth coming!!

#2  Posted by Gabriel Powell  |  Saturday, February 27, 2010at 10:00 PM

Scott, search YouTube for "Graham Schuller". You'll find the video there... very disturbing.

#3  Posted by Suzanne Shirley  |  Saturday, February 27, 2010at 11:27 PM

Once again, THANK YOU JOHN MACARTHUR for preaching the TRUTH...Jesus Christ and him crucified, the ONLY way to eternal life. And THANK GOD for John MacArthur and other pastors (although there are very few) who preach the Truth from their pulpits. We MUST be discerning as to the issue of 'Who is a Christian?' We must!

#4  Posted by Michael Epp  |  Sunday, February 28, 2010at 1:07 AM

So many people write on this blog, so one more comment really isn't needed. But I really do believe what John Macarthur is saying is truthful, because if you listen to the thoughts of those people, it takes away from the world and people in church the ability to understand what is definitively the truth, and not just that, but the authority in God's written word, and what the apostles have given us to be as the only gospel, in the new Testament.

#5  Posted by Bob Payne  |  Sunday, February 28, 2010at 11:51 AM

I just found this blog site by accident. I am not certain of all of the specifics relative to Dr. Graham's remarks, however, if occurs to me that this is very sad, an attack on someone who appears to have served the LORD so faithfully, and with personal integrity so long. Would every word ever uttered by the Apostle Paul survived such a blogsite??? Whild searching some of the blog history, I was saddeded to see that very recently in a message, John MacArthur made disparging comments relative to Dr. Henry Blackaby. In this, too I was very shocked. MacArthur has actually preached a message in Dr. Blackaby's home church; I know, I was there! I have had the honor of preaching the seven realities of Experiencing God in over 240 churches worldwide as a volunteer, and continue to see the dramatic impact it has on millions (not just Southern Baptist). Are the principles that Dr. B expouse so off the mark, 1. God is at work, 2. God continues to pursue a continuing love relationship with you that is real and personal, 3. God invites us to work with Him, 4. God speaks (yes He speaks) by the Hoy Spirit through Scripture, Prayer, the Church, and circumstances in our lives, 5. God brings us to a crisis of belief that requires faith and action, 6. God requires us to make major adjustments to join HIM!, and 7. through our obedience we experience HIM! I love John's teahcing, but I wish we could stay with scripture and stop criticizing the work of others that God has CLEARLY used in a POWERFUL way. Yes, I do believe that God Still Speaks!

#6  Posted by Mary Elizabeth Palshan  |  Sunday, February 28, 2010at 12:29 PM

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#7  Posted by Mary Elizabeth Palshan  |  Sunday, February 28, 2010at 12:37 PM

Dear Bob:

I am very familiar with what Dr. MacArthur is talking about. I have watched and listened to Billy Graham's comments with Robert Schuller AND his conversations with Larry King, also Joel Osteen's. This has upset me so much that I wrote an article for my blog about it. I am appalled when a pastor cannot articulate that Christ is the only way. We should never put anyone on a pedestal because we know some will fall away from the faith. Keep up the good work Dr. MacArthur.

My article needs revising, but you get the gist. I would send you to my blog, but it needs revamping.

Don’t Loose Sight of Your HorizonWritten by Mary Elizabeth Tyler© 1/1/2009

As a preacher and evangelist of God’s holy word, you must believe with all your heart, soul, and mind, that Christ is the ONLY way to eternal life (the way, the truth, and the life (Jo 14:6). And be willing not only to make this proclamation in the public arena of the church, but also be able to defend it with unflinching nerve, when conversing with TV talk show hosts such as Larry King, and many other notables in the public media. Several theological panel discussions, on the Larry King show, have unearthed some surprising false beliefs held by certain stalwarts of the Christian faith.

There have been a few well known, some even seasoned TV evangelists and preachers, men of great renown, lately, who have diverged in the woods, opting for the broader road that leads to destruction; straying far from the road less traveled. Many have dodged the question when put to them point blank by Larry King, “Is Jesus Christ the only way to get to heaven?” They duck such perceived, near indignities, as if some ominous black bird were making grand sweeps and lobs at their foreheads. With much chagrin they sigh, shrug their limp, perplexed shoulders, and give some mumbled, off topic, garbled retort, of, “I cannot judge any man’s heart only God can, I am only called to love God and all people alike.” That’s it??? Is that all there is? Hmm! Why not just say what’s in your heart? Christ “IS” the only way. Let your yes be yes and your no be no. My son at five years old could articulate better than that, he could even tell you that peanuts made peanut butter, lemons made lemon aid, and milk came from cows. How much more should we expect from preachers and evangelists, who are infinitely wiser than children, and whose “divine milk” does not come from a cow? So, are we asking too much? Is Christ, or isn’t Christ, the only way?

Some evangelists, who are prone to the cheeky, positive, gospel message (grins and more grins), joyfully receive the question, and still manage to obfuscate and bungle the good news. And say silly things like, “ You owe it to yourself to be happy, and be the very best person you can possibly be, so think positive.” Is that possible? A Johnny be good! Most of us folk come from a floundering line of the Johnny “Apple Seed” variety; we are born of bad seed, bad to the bone, rotten to the core, and in desperate need of something more than a mere positive possibility (grins included). These do for yourself something good, gurus, relish the opportunity to be all things to all people, conversing on topics that they know little about, and talk in round about circles as if they were well informed (I guess nonsense is tolerable and preferable to the foolish. Only Mr. Ed [the talking horse] would “never talk” unless he had something to say). There may be a lesson here, if you are willing to believe horses talk (but we do know-donkeys can).

My serious deep concern in all of this is for the evangelists who court the world’s affections and desire the love of all men. It does happen. Which is sad and most regrettable. This world has its potentates, princes, popes, and presidents, who all need the redeeming message of Jesus; all people need Christ as their Lord and Savior. But the snare of the fowler stands ready and waiting when gifted men of the pulpit find the pleasures and the powers of this world more enticing and more desirable than Christ’s offer for life. We, as Christians, are to be in the world but not of the world. “Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing: and I will receive you” (2 Cor 6:17).

There is a balance that one needs to cultivate: we are to go among the unregenerate, as to influence them for Christ, preaching Christ crucified, but we do not partake of their questionable entertainments, lifestyles, philosophies and or their apostate religions. Many have found this difficult to do while courting the world’s elite on the golf course. The more the world beckons them their feet remain entrenched in the world.

The core gospel message that Christ is the “ONLY” way to heaven then becomes muddied, foggy, and a hard to articulate doctrine for some evangelists, and instead comes out in sweeping, twisted phrases like, “The Pope is a magnanimous God fearing man, who is God’s voice to the world at large. It is time for all evangelicals everywhere to unite and accept all people of all faiths because all roads lead to heaven.” This is an alarming statement! The preacher… the evangelist... the teacher… the keeper and mouthpiece of God’s most precious holy word, has just lost his horizon. Jesus!

It is the same with pilots, you know. When flying over the ocean they can loose sight of the horizon. The ocean and sky become a wash, the sea becomes the sky: the sky the sea. They cannot distinguish the blue overhead from the deep blue, cerulean sea: zenith from nadir. Their focal point, the horizon, is gone. They are not even aware of their free falling until the hard, thunderous crash comes, and by then it is too late to pullback. They plunge headlong into the black abyss, irretrievably lost because of the sheer depth and expanse of the sea.

The evangelist, too, faces the same fate as the pilot when he looses his horizon. The man becomes the world, and the world becomes the man, you can no longer tell them apart. All because he did not listen to the voice of God, “Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate….”

posted by Mary Elizabeth Tyler at 10:09 PM | 2 Comments Links to this post

#8  Posted by David Calland  |  Sunday, February 28, 2010at 1:20 PM

Mary, you may not be so quick to send positive messages to Dr. MacArthur if you were to understand his biblical position on female pastors/ministers. He does not believe that scripture supports women in the pulpit.

#9  Posted by Fred Butler  |  Sunday, February 28, 2010at 2:06 PM

Bob writes,

I am not certain of all of the specifics relative to Dr. Graham's remarks, however, if occurs to me that this is very sad, an attack on someone who appears to have served the LORD so faithfully, and with personal integrity so long. Would every word ever uttered by the Apostle Paul survived such a blogsite???

Bob, the reality is that what MacArthur points out about Dr. Graham is not one, off the cuff miss speak.  It is what has marked Graham's entire theology through out his ministry.   Iain Murray has documented Graham's  line of thinking from the inception of his crusade days until now in his book "Evangelicalism Divided."  It would be worth your time reading at least the first chapters or so to get a historical over view of what Graham has believed on matters of ecumenicalism and salvation without Jesus.

As for Henry Blackaby, his theology on determining God's will is also extremely problematic and could easily lead to disaster in the lives of Christians if they chose to follow his advice.  I would recommend a review of a book called "How then Should we Chose."  It's a position book, where Blackably wrote defending his position on making choices against two other perspectives. 

http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2009/04/non-sola-scriptura-blackaby-view-of.html

I would be curious for you to respond to Dan's criticisms of Blackaby's position, or at least interact with him biblically.

 

Fred Butler

#10  Posted by Leigh Nicks  |  Sunday, February 28, 2010at 2:26 PM

In response to a few postings:

I am new to this blog posting myself and have not posted yet because I have just been listening and reading. I would like to share some of what Dr. MacArthur said from his sermon ‘The Prominence of Love’ 1 Cor 13:1-3. But first I believe we all have the right and privilege to think through what we hear from any pulpit and what we say to each other in regards to it. I personally like Henry Blackaby and his teaching, but take to heart what I hear John MacArthur saying about any teacher and ask the Holy Spirit to speak to my heart in regards to what I hear said and to give me His wisdom and discernment about it. I am just a lay person, and a child of God, so my opinion doesn't matter one way or the other on this blog but it does before God. I think more than anything Mr. MacArthur is just trying to stay right before God with what has been entrusted to him because his accountability is ultimately before God, as is every teacher of His Word.

"Did you ever hear of anybody who got a Ph.D. for love? We call people "Doctor" for their intellectual eminence. And I ... you see, our value system isn't all it ought to be, is it? Spiritual insight, insight into the Scriptures, intellectual achievement, without love is nothing but spiritual snobbery, that's all. It's Phariseeism and it's condescension. You see, knowledge without love kills ... it's like the letter without the spirit. Knowledge without love is ugly. Knowledge with love is beautiful. Knowledge without love is impotent. Knowledge with love is powerful.

In 1 Corinthians 8:1 Paul already hinted at this when he said to the Corinthians, listen: "Knowledge builds pride." He put it this way, "Knowledge puffs up, love builds up." Knowledge puffs up, love builds up. If you have a choice between learning to love and learning some facts, learn to love. The Bible emphasizes this again and again. Oh, it's important to know things, you can't depreciate knowledge ... not at all. God doesn't want a whole bunch of loving ignoramuses ... they'll love themselves right into all kinds of error, they sure will. They'll go around loving so much that they won't make any discrimination between who's right and who's wrong, who's saved and who's not and they'll mess up everything. Got to have knowledge. That's why the Bible talks about love with knowledge.

Philippians 1:9, "And this I pray that-your love may abound more and more in knowledge." Do you see? You can't separate those two, you have to keep them in a perfect balance. And I think here at Grace Church we have to keep that balance because it would be easy for us to get heavy on the knowledge end of it, a little light on the love side. If you have your choice between coming to a class or coming to a service to learn something and on your way helping somebody who just had a flat tire, stop and fix the flat tire. "

#11  Posted by Beate Masslock  |  Sunday, February 28, 2010at 2:50 PM

Another great sermon by John MacArthur! Thank you so much for sticking with the truth, no matter what. I have to something about him mentioning the Christian colleges and Seminaries. My kids had a youth pastor who is now a Professor at Baptist Seminary in Kentucky. I know that when he was our kid's Pastor, he believed in a literal 24-hour day of Creation. Now he is a Professor, has written several books and all of a sudden he says that the Hebrew word "yom" in Genesis can mean "an indefinite amount of time", and he says God "took millions of years to create the Universe". This is what our future Pastors and Theologians are learning at a Baptist Seminary nowadays. This is so upsetting to me! I can only pray that these students will not believe everthing they hear, but will compare evrything with the Word of God and prayerfully ask God for wisdon in this matter.

#12  Posted by Douglas Grogg  |  Sunday, February 28, 2010at 4:36 PM

Why do many of today’s evangelicals seem to prefer the Dark Ages to the Reformation? Why do they prefer obscurity to clarity, darkness rather than light? “And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light: for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought of God.” John 3:19-21 “Truly, truly I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God” John 3:3 “…And this is His name by which He will be called ‘The Lord our righteousness’” Jeremiah 23:6

Those who come to the light recognize that they have no righteousness of their own. Theirs is an imputed righteousness. They came to God as beggars unable to even look up. (See Matthew 5:3) They came weary and heavy laden over the weight of their sins seeking mercy. God not only gave them mercy but also clothed them with the perfect righteousness of His own Son with whom He is and was well pleased. Those who come to the light now come to their Merciful and Faithful High Priest who is to them their Mercy Seat, yes, even to the Throne of Grace (See Hebrews 4:14-16) where they continue to find mercy and grace to help in time of need, yes, even enabling grace because apart from Him they can do nothing. John 15:5 He is to them imparted righteousness as well as imputed righteousness. (See 1 Corinthians 1:30

Those who prefer obscurity to clarity may have prayed a prayer or went down some isle but He was not there. He was never welcome there. They were too proud to come as beggars. Those who deceived them were too proud as well. They were too busy trying to do God a favor or establish some form of righteousness of their own. Salvation is of the Lord. Truly, truly He says to you, you must be born again! -His Unworthy Slave

#13  Posted by Elaine Bittencourt  |  Sunday, February 28, 2010at 4:45 PM

# 8 - David, to preach as in to deliver a sermon is only one of the many definitions of the word preach:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/preach

----------

As a woman, I fully agree with Pastor MacArthur's view on female leadership. Your word "minister" begs the right definition as well.

E.

#14  Posted by Jeremy Miller  |  Sunday, February 28, 2010at 5:17 PM

John MacArthur speaks soundly and is not afraid to stand up for the real truth that the Bible holds. He is not afraid to confront highly influential preachers when they are not preaching the truth. Thank you Dr. MacArthur for being a shepherd to your sheep! These preachers who are preaching politically correct ministry have got it all wrong. God's Word is VERY simple and clear about what it means to be a Christian and to be part of the body of Christ.

As John MacArthur has stated on many occasions - He is not ashamed of the gospel nor preaching the truth about it.

Thank you so much for staying true to God's Word as a preacher of the Bible!

#15  Posted by Claude Whitaker Jr  |  Sunday, February 28, 2010at 7:30 PM

I want to respond to Bob Payne's comments and I quote him "! I love John's teahcing, but I wish we could stay with scripture and stop criticizing the work of others that God has CLEARLY used in a POWERFUL way."

I, like many, love Billy Graham and John MacArthur, however, as members of the body of Christ, our loyalty is to the Lord and the Truth of Scripture. If Billy, John or any other preacher comes preaching a different Gospel, we are commanded to condemn them and their false teaching. John is correct. Billy Graham stands to be corrected. This conversation is healthy for the Church.

Remember Jude 3

Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

We must contend for the Faith even when it means standing up against false teaching in the Body of Christ.

#16  Posted by James Ross  |  Sunday, February 28, 2010at 9:59 PM

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.11 ¶And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I think a lot of Ministers or Gospel Preachers have misunderstood the timeline of the Gospel and also the things the Lord spoke of before His Crucifiction. Much of the Gospels our Lord is speaking to the lost of Israel this is to whom He first came I think that is clear. When asked about eternal life our Lord answered basically keep the commandments. This was to the Jew before the Cross and the preaching and inclusion of the Gentiles. It may be that the Great White Throne Judgement occured at time the Apostle saw it this was the judging of those who were asleep in the earth to who the Gospel had not been preached. I do not believe God condemned to an eternity in the Lake of Fire simply because they had not received a Gospel they had never been exposed to. For most here in the 21st Century there is no excuse, for the most part the Gospel has or is being preached to the ends of the earth hince a lot belive that the Lords return is soon. Even so Lord Jesus Come" However those who never heard the Gospel are judged it will be a very narrow path that leads to eternal life and few will find it. Given the instructions or oridinaces of our Lord and of His Apostles who can stand to eternal life under the scope of the scriptures. I think we all deserve death I know I do and I stand with the Apostle who says "There is no other Name under Heaven by which man may be saved" Perhaps the Great White Throne Judgment hasn't happend and is still in the future but I do believe there may be those asleep who did not deserve hell at the time of their death who did receive and did not have an opportunity to receive the Gospel. As the Apostle Paul said "The heavens declare His Glory so none is without excuse" and those who names are not writtem in the "Lambs" Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Sobering words as John Piper says. I love Dr. Graham and grieve for him may he hear these words and speak to clarify his stand. The wisest man who ever lived fell away to the same fate so it is possible for anyone thanks be to God for those who set a plumb line before us like Dr. McArthur but do it with LOVE. Love James Reid Ross

#17  Posted by Michael Epp  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 12:21 AM

That all men everywhere are lost and face the judgment of God, and need to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through His shed blood on the cross.

The following is a quote from BGEA statement of faith:

"That all men everywhere are lost and face the judgment of God, and need to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through his shed blood on the cross."

The present need, then, would be to ask Billy Graham if what he presently believes is still in alignment to thier statement of faith. To say that people are saved even without knowing it, does contradict his statement of faith. (if this is truly what Billy Graham meant - and to be fair, he should be personally asked for personal clarification)

I believe that to say that someone can be saved without having a "saving knowledge" or knowledge of being saved..... this is un-Scriptural yes....but this is a serious issue that should be questioned of Billy Graham personally.

#18  Posted by Daniel Flaherty  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 6:05 AM

I really enjoy these blogs and reading/learning much about the Christian faith - thankyou to all the contributors. I have a question - does anyone doubt that men like Solomon and other Old Testament saints are in heaven in spite of great sin their lives - even after having full lives and seeing blessing after blessing bestowed on them from God? I pick Solomon because of all the idolatry participating in by being married to all those pagan wives & concubines. I appreciate being firm and steadfast about the exclusivity of the Gospel but should we be more careful in condemning brothers who have failed to proclaim the true gospel? Has anyone actually questioned Billy about this Schuller interview and rebuked him to his face? Thanks for your answers...

Maranatha!

Dan

#19  Posted by Elaine Bittencourt  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 6:24 AM

# 16 - James. I am sorry your post is a little confusing to me, it all looks one long sentence.

1 - I think you're saying that you believe the final judgment has already happened? I quote you: "Perhaps the Great White Throne Judgment hasn't happend and is still in the future but I do believe there may be those asleep who did not deserve hell at the time of their death who did receive and did not have an opportunity to receive the Gospel."

2 - For those that died before Jesus came (I think that's what you're trying to say) and went to hell, you say it was not fair, right? So what you are saying is God is/was UN-just???

3 - What does the above have to do with Billy Graham? I don't understand, I apologize.

E.

#20  Posted by Elaine Bittencourt  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 6:59 AM

# 18 - Daniel, hi! =)

Can you show me where exactly anyone condemned BG? (I mention BG because we were discussing him in the topic of apostasy).

I like it as little as you do. I wish apostasy didn't exist. I wish all these great preachers, theologians, evangelists, the ones who once where faithful and loyal to the Gospel of our Lord would never walk away from the truth. I often think 1 John 2:18-19 and how clearly we can see that in our days. As much as I wish it would be different, it will not be. Denying it won't make it to go away.

There are those who clearly don't preach the true Gospel (several names come to mind), and have a huge following of people who call themselves Christians. But there are those who were once faithful, admired and loved by true Christians. The latter are the ones who hurt us the most I guess. But the Word is clear: "they went out from us..."

I think what Christians need the most is submission to the Word, I mean total submission. Don't we only submit to the things that we like, that don't stir up anything in us, that don't call us to a change of thinking? Yes. We like what we like and that's it. Let's face it, we liking it or not has nothing to do with God's Word and His divine will. But no, we call God un-just, we call the doctrine of election a monstruous/demoniac thing. We call the wrath of God something that has been mis-interpreted in the Bible. Don't we see that we don't get a right to an opinion? That we are only clay?

So when the bible tells us about antichrists and their doings, and that we need to discern between truth and error, what we do? We call people who do that unloving, judgmental, we even quote scripture to them (you know, the don't judge as you also going to be judged).

I actually had this happened to me this Sunday. This couple follow some very strange "Christian" leaders. I did my homework on one of them and gave them the paper to check for the facts themselves, check the leader's books, etc etc. Well, guess what I heard back? Don't judge.

Sorry, I didn't mean for this to be this long.

E.

E.

#21  Posted by Daniel Flaherty  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 9:10 AM

# 20 Elaine - Thank you. I actually do believe BG is in error and needs to be publically held accountable since he used the public airwaves to proclaim apostate views. I just wonder if any leaders have privately rebuked him and he still holds to his wrong views. In other words - does Matthew 18:17 apply: "And if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector"? What would be ideal is if men like MacArthur, Sproul, etc. would go to BG privately (w/o the media frenzy), lovingly address this error, and have BG publically proclaim the gospel message of the exclusivity of Jesus Christ and admit this recorded interview with Schuller is wrong. Maybe they already have and I am missing something. If he doesn't - do we delcare BG to be apostate? Is this the end result? I believe the answer is "yes". Thanks for the dialogue. Dan

#22  Posted by Shauna Bryant  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 9:17 AM

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#23  Posted by Rick White  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 10:21 AM

Bob,

I did a search to see what you were talking about pertaining to John MacArthur making disparaging remarks relative to Henry Blackaby.I could only find one place where John MacArthur mentions Henry Blackaby's teaching and it was in response to a question during a Q&A session.He actually said many gracious things about Henry Blackaby's teaching and how much good can be gleaned from it.The only negative thing he had to say was about "listening for God's voice" outside of scripture.I think you're being overly sensitive about one of your heroes.

Personally I don't think anyone should be off limits when it comes to teaching error.I'm sure John MacArthur would have no problem being corrected by scripture and I'm sure he has at some time in his life.We all have.One of the things I appreciate most about John MacArthur is that he will expose error no matter where it's coming from and he uses the scriptures to do so.You also comment that "I am not certain of all of the specifics relative to Dr. Graham's remarks, however, if occurs to me that this is very sad, an attack on someone who appears to have served the LORD so faithfully, and with personal integrity so long."What I find even sadder is Dr. Graham's willingness to water down the gospel itself.Remember Paul even corrected Peter when he deviated from the gospel.Galatians 2:11-21

#24  Posted by Shauna Bryant  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 1:35 PM

*Comments by Shauna Bryant*

#8 David,

As a woman I also agree with JM's BIBLICAL position that women are NOT to be ministers/preachers. I am very well studied in Gods Word and I love to speak - but that would only be biblical for me to do in a womens group. Women are not to be above men in matters of the duties of a Pastor. The bible is not ambiguous about this. But surely, women who are that disobedient are so for purposes of PRIDE. Because they think "Well, I am good and I have much to offer and I am capable, so I shall." It's is not always what we CAN do but what we SHOULD do. And obedience to Gods Word MUST come before our own selfish desires. God has reasons and we are to trust and believe.

I think though you may have thought Mary was a Minister, not recognizing she was talking about those men who are and their responsibilities.

#5 - Bob

Yes, the Apostles Pauls words would have survived a 'blog site' - oh he would be attacked for sure because he spoke truth. But his words, inspired by the Holy Spirit, would have and do stand up to scrutiny. The Apostle Paul was not permitted to write things as an apostate or things that would sacrifice the very Gospel he was entruted with for the sake of unity. But that is indeed what we see so many "Big Names" doing. We are to search the scriptures and point out error and recognize false teachings. Remember the false teachers are disguised as sheep....and they gain the trust of the fold.....towards what end? To slaughter the sheep. It is our responsibility to be discerning.

James #16 - In Genesis the promise of the messiah is declared when Adam and Eve fell! And OT believers were looking forward to that. In fact, if you read the OT you will see that the true believers KNEW that. There is INDEED NO EXCUSE. You wrote: "I do not believe God condemned to an eternity in the Lake of Fire simply because they had not received a Gospel they had never been exposed to." End of your quote. We should be very careful of questioning God and putting our own fallen thoughts on Hell and what is fair/not fair, especially when we have no understanding - because it IS there if only we will read and believe. The Gospel IS in the OT - the fact of Salvation coming to the Gentiles is what Israel did not understand - yet that is in the OT as well. The word Salvation occurs the first time in Genesis - along with the word Waited. THEY KNEW they were waiting for Salvation - a personal one - from the LORD. Genesis 48:19 says - I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD. Again, the Bible is clear - they DID know. Noah and his family Knew and passed that info along. When the people built the tower THEY KNEW they were being disobedient to Gods command. But people had unbelief. Why even Ninevah was told about God and they all, even their animals went about in sackcloth and ashes. Then they forgot and were judged. But they still knew - and God's Word was declared to every nation that captured Israel - and the nations all saw The God of Israel in how he dealt with Israel. God is Just. Yes, there has been an "unfolding" throughout the Bible so we would know who specifically the messiah is. And they should have known Him when He came.....but they did not believe and sadly, most still don't today. One glaring fact of History is that people knew. Unbelief is what sends one to hell. This is why people need to be more about studying what Gods Word actually says instead of what they THINK it says, or what they want it to say in spite of what it does say! You know, there were plenty of Christians who were killed (many by the RCC) for sticking to what they knew about Jesus Christ - even when they didn't have Bibles. God has always provided a "Way" (that's an interesting study - The Way in the Bible) for His people, in every age. His people DO KNOW. If there is a problem between what God's Word declares and what we think...trust me, the problem is with us every time.

People throughout History haven't believed the Father and many don't believe the Son either. There's a parable about that too! We are all, inall ages, WITHOUT EXCUSE. Period.

#25  Posted by Shona Cohen  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 2:50 PM

I have never thought Billy Graham was a Christian, ever. A shallow voice box. And going to a first comment in here, 'respected Billy graham'...God is not a respector of man...I am merely repeating here waht i said in the last thread - set yourself up with Trust in man, set yourself up for a nosedive! Christ alone!

But praise God again for him voicing through John the Truth with a God given passion!

Why does noone spell the words out clearly here. Billy Graham has just proven himself to be a liar and murderer like his father before him! It is that simple. He is operating prime evil in suggesting that those of religion(s) and outwith the body are saved! Tell the world that and then people see no need for redemption, so he has esteemed (narcissiced) himself to the point of becoming 'psychopathic' - aka possessed, he can kill with words, no gas or holocaust required.He is mind planting to people outwith Christ they are saved! That is evil in supreme - and murder. Note: i am in no way denouncing your average psychopath here as beyond reproach because they are not, and can be evangelised, easily - they are just labelled as such by the real psychopaths to convince them they are unsaveable...

His book title says it all really...just as i am. Analyse that?

I disagree with John that we need exposure to the Bible. It is in us first. I, from God knew it before reading and so do several (not all) of my children. That is the evidence of irresistable Grace.

But those who are Christian and indwelt will deviate TO the full truth of the Gospel, not away from it - and that is the teller in how it transforms up, not down, and ive lost count of how many people now so adherent to Gospel cos taught it that fall away after rising hard and fast by misusing its Truth.

Call them non Christians, cos that is what they are!!! I lost my kids for 8 months for faith and everyone that rose up and said they were Christian in this process, myself and kids knew otherwise and they destructed and corrupted all the way, so much so my kids spent 8 months of hell with abusers and were corrupted beyond believe and only Love, God brings them back home and our total Faith in his sovereinity! It has grown their faith and their knowledge of good and evil - God is great!!!!!

I was mad, paranoid, psychotic, you name it for saying these people were not Christians, including clergy, cos a cross global avalanche of clergy launched itself on me and my family, including those wanting to lead a global anglican movement, and a whole lot else, but the Truth wins out always!!!!!!!

If Billy Graham can say 'we' in reference to all of these people, he is as ive always, (God givenly) thought a cult leader and of the cults!

'we' is special and for the elect, through no means of our own making or doing,,,only Gods.

He just made out with the non elect...hell mend him

#26  Posted by Shona Cohen  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 3:03 PM

I came across somethign in this site that caused massive discomfort in my heart. The book/audio to test if you are save selling at a price. I dont want to disparage John, but this is way wrong in my estimation. God is the tester of Salvation and for any man to plant a price on such a test is beyond all biblical reason. If a man thinks he has such a test, which isnt necessary imo...surely that is the one thing that should be given for free as much as 3.16 is..It read almost like spiritual blackmail to those with doubt, i have no doubts at all...but am well aware that only Christians will doubt their salvation at all, so i found this 'thang' up for sale very very distasteful.

#27  Posted by Shona Cohen  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 3:24 PM

Femalle 'ministry'.......back to Genesis.....even Christ kept Mary Magdalene at his side...a head needs a strong neck otherwise it flops!

Man needed a helper, not a minister, he already has a minister, supreme!

The neck is there to keep pointing the head upwards, not downwards otherwise man become a ....woman, to help, not hinder...

#28  Posted by Elaine Bittencourt  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 3:37 PM

Shona... you are too quick to judge. And it's all my respect that I will tell you this, I've noticed that from some of your other posts. I know we all fall into that sometimes.

The proper approach to this problem would have been for you to have emailed GTY "FIRST", and not posting your "discomfort" in public like this, because, who knows, you just might be wrong, right?

It just so happens you are. Every and each resource on this website (except real books) are offered both at a price and for free.

When you find a study that you like, if you only see the link to buy it, click on the link that says "read" just below the title of the study and you will be taken to another page, very similar to the first one, where you can read and download anything for free.

I have also to disagree with you on the "testing your faith" thing. Your "opinion" (I thought you were going to say it was un-biblical) actually doesn't matter much, if God Himself put the tests in the Bible, it's enough for me.

But... for the sake of argument. The study on 1 John (which includes the tests) was fundamental on testing myself on the faith. And after 16 years thinking I was a Christian, I was more than grateful to God to have put myself through that test.

In Christ,

E.

#29  Posted by Elaine Bittencourt  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 3:46 PM

Here's the link to the first Tests of Assurance, this is 1 of 3:

https://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/61-8

2 of 3 would be code 61-9

3 of 3 would be code 61-10

#30  Posted by Shona Cohen  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 3:53 PM

I am not judging! You are to quick to respond. They are only some links Elaine, not all. Look deeper, many are not up for free reads at all....

Why would my first approach be to mail gty first? I am sincerely not so important that my comments count here at all...

Nor is GTY so important it counts either for that matter...

We are all just employees!

Elaine, with all my heart i will say this, i neither need, nor want your respect, give it to God eh!

John is fabtastic in what he does, but you guys are almost following him in a cult like fashion and i dont think he seeks that at all, but you turn him into it, for your own means.

You have ONE father - not TWO!

#31  Posted by Elaine Bittencourt  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 3:55 PM

I apologize for posting again. When I say on # 28 to click on "read", I meant to say "listen".

Grace and Peace,

E.

#32  Posted by Shona Cohen  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 3:59 PM

The point is Elaine, had you read the book the right way up - you would not have needed the test at all! And i seriously doubt at all that anyone neds such a test - they know, full stop. Doubt is an evidence.

#33  Posted by Shona Cohen  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 4:01 PM

Do you think you are saved Elaine with the response you gave Brad on the other thread?

#34  Posted by Shona Cohen  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 4:02 PM

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#35  Posted by Elaine Bittencourt  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 4:03 PM

Shona, I am very sorry that you think "we" are following MacArthur in a cult fashion. You must know each one of us personally to judge us so well.

I am not getting into this argument, not here, not now, not ever. What I do and what I think, who I follow or not: God is the judge of my heart, not you.

Like I said, grace and peace and God bless you,

E.

#36  Posted by Shona Cohen  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 4:04 PM

Comment deleted by administrator.
#37  Posted by Shona Cohen  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 4:08 PM

PS.dont try that old bring in the army stunt of 'we' - many in here are not following John in a cult like sense at all, but read cos he talks Truth and are pleased to see in the Lord another of the True body and another with feet, no more than that. Nice try Elaine, but it wont work with the True!

The more you write the more you try to split Elaine, the more my point is proven,,,

#38  Posted by Mary Elizabeth Palshan  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 4:08 PM

# 18

Dear David:

To enter into this discussion forum, the opening statement says, “Keep listening how to get involved into the online discussion.” Then in closing it says, “Let us know what you think.”

I do not see where it makes any formal statement that women are to be excluded from giving their thoughts and opinions on the subject at hand. If women are asked not to participate, then I am sure each and every one of us would comply without hesitation. It is hard to find Calvinist blogs, and then to find one for women is even more difficult, and women LOVE to discuss the Bible, just like men do. So, ladies, if anyone is interested, maybe we could start one just for reformed women??? What is the old saying? “If you build it, they will come.” J

Also, I am not a pastor or a minister, as Shauna rightly inferred. Many times I write things in essay forum when I have opinions on certain subjects. Each and every person here gives their opinions, whether it is off the cuff or more formalized, the format does not really matter, it is still opinion. Just because a woman writes an essay, does not mean she supports the position that women should take a leadership role in the church, as you have implied. I totally affirm that women should NEVER usurp authority over a man. If you knew anything about me, you would know that for years I constantly refuted women who thought it was O.K. to be a pastor and lead a flock. I believe what the Bible teaches on this subject, and, I’m in almost total agreement with everything Dr. MacArthur teaches on every doctrine. He is one of the few pastors that adheres to sound Biblical truth: why do you think so many people like him and can identify with him? Those who love God’s Word; love J.M.’s teachings. That simple! It is not idol worship. He simply teaches the truth so clearly that we all so love.

Now, I will say no more on this matter because I do not want to take away from Dr. MacArthur’s subject.

It is hard for people to hear that a man so associated with Christianity such as Billy Graham, could ever fall from grace. He is an institution. Right? When I first heard this, I was shocked, as a child I MADE my parents sit down with me and listen to his crusades on T.V.. I looked forward to this more than a Sunday night with popcorn and pop watching the Beatles debut on Ed Sullivan. Wow, that dates me. Ouch! Only later did I discover that BG has always taught Universalism. My feelings are that once a person starts embracing ecumenism, it is a slippery slope from then on.

When I first heard J.M.’s views on this, there was absolutely no question in my mind it was the truth. He knows he is accountable before God to be truthful and also to defend the faith.

#39  Posted by Mary Elizabeth Palshan  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 4:10 PM

I am sorry, it is number 8, not 18.

#40  Posted by Randy Johnson  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 4:11 PM

So, it has become popular to impose our 21st century experience on the Bible and update its message to fit our times. The Bible and religious belief is now subject to evolution. The theory of evolution is a powerful tool in the hands of Satan. He uses it attack biblical teaching on many fronts.

Thank you, John, for teaching us about the God of the Bible. This God told his people through Jeremiah that false beliefs would not deliver them from judgment. Since they had the truth and no longer wanted to profess it, He told Jeremiah not to pray for them. He told those people to go ahead and just eat the whole sacrifice because He would not accept it anyway. He told them they brought ruin on themselves. Why do we seldom hear about this God? We don't because this was just an early stage of man's religious development. We have now evolved to the point that we realize even God has grown over the years to become more inclusive of other cultures and other religious beliefs.

Then the next Bible translation in our religious development should exclude this statement: "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."

#41  Posted by Shona Cohen  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 4:13 PM

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#42  Posted by Shona Cohen  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 4:20 PM

Amen! MET! I have been tried by so many Christian men to lead a ministry! It is not for me! I talk about what i have learnt rather with no desire to usurp at all but to empower men to ministry In Christ! We are not to be wet blankets, but to lead men forward to what God desires them to be!

#43  Posted by Shona Cohen  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 5:13 PM

MET, I run calvinist womens sites (and male healing), but my latest is under construct at mo...mail me if you want a link later. Love to have you onboard, but i wont place any details here cos i dont want to undermine GTY at all, i love this place, it rocks - literally! Awesome!

#44  Posted by Dee Hendon  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 5:20 PM

IF YOU WANT TO BE UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED THEN YOU "SELL" UNIVERSAL SALVATION.

DEE

#45  Posted by Bob Payne  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 5:52 PM

Rick, relative to your notes that I have posted below; On Jan 11 JM referred to Dr. Blackaby while talking about "false prophets" in the same line as Benny Hinn and Oral Roberts. Dr. Blackaby has never claimed anything like this; if you met him, you would come to know him as a deeply humble man. In your notes (below) you neglected to mention in the Q&A that JM made a comment about Dr. B's study being used to sell "bumper stickers" etc (THIS HAS NEVER BEEN DONE, and JM owes Dr B's ministry an apology over that comment). JM also refers to the continual "curriculum development" out of the original Experiencing God work; first of all most of these rights have been owned by the publisher Lifeway and initiated therein, and secondarily, how could JM dare mention selling material & curriculum development as this is a major part of his ministry. This is ok from my standpoint for a ministry to do, but the comments aligned next to JMs own ministry seem hypocritical. Lastly, I am copying some of the JM comments below from Jan 11 "False Prophets" and additional comments from 'Brenda Trice' (that I disagree with) relative to Dr. B. Brenda, frankly is a friend of mine, and was a member of Dr. B's home church until recently. Again, I do believe that God still speaks! I do not believe that I am being over sensitive "to one of my heroes"; I have see God's work through Dr. B's material in over 240 churches around the world where I have taught, and know of literally thousands of others.

From JM Jan 11 False Prophets: Similar ideas have found sweeping acceptance even among non-charismatic Christians. Southern Baptists have eagerly devoured Experiencing God by Henry Blackaby and Claude King, which suggests that the main way the Holy Spirit leads believers is by speaking to them directly. According to Blackaby, when God gives an individual a message that pertains to the church, it should be shared with the whole body.[2] As a result, extrabiblical "words from the Lord" are now commonplace even in some Southern Baptist circles.

#16 Posted by Brenda Trice | Tuesday, January 12, 2010 at 7:16 AM

Thank you for constantly directing us to Scripture! I am one who went through Experiencing God several times because it was encouraged at our SBC! It was not until my family began hearing the false doctrine of a Blackaby son and the Truth of Scripture from John MacArthur that we began to see the error of "Experiencing God". We left our church and I lost my job at our church because of the stand we took against that false teaching. But, Praise God, He has led us to a new church whose Pastor stands on the Truth of Scripture and that alone. He is a great expositor and we are being challenged and convicted again from the pulpit. Don't think it cannot happen at YOUR church! We had been active members for over 30 years and am still amazed at the people who remain, listen to these lies and believe they are hearing such "Pearls of Wisdom". The ONLY way to KNOW GOD is to KNOW SCRIPTURE! The ONLY way he REVEALS HIMSELF to us is THROUGH SCRIPTURE! Wake up, people! We do not hear voices unless there is something wrong with us! So, thank you, John MacArthur, and all the others who stand firm on the Scriptures and the Scriptures alone

Posted by Rick White | Monday, March 01, 2010 10:21 AM

Bob,

I did a search to see what you were talking about pertaining to John MacArthur making disparaging remarks relative to Henry Blackaby.I could only find one place where John MacArthur mentions Henry Blackaby's teaching and it was in response to a question during a Q&A session.He actually said many gracious things about Henry Blackaby's teaching and how much good can be gleaned from it.The only negative thing he had to say was about "listening for God's voice" outside of scripture.I think you're being overly sensitive about one of your heroes.

#46  Posted by Shauna Bryant  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 6:48 PM

*Shauna Bryant*

#30-Shona

You falsely accused Elaine of bringing in the "army stunt of we" into her response - yet it was you who began the "we" in your post.

You wrote: "John is fabtastic in what he does, but you guys are almost following him in a cult like fashion and i dont think he seeks that at all, but you turn him into it, for your own means."

I'm not sure who all you are referring to exactly by "you guys", but I have read and re-read these posts and I fail to see cult like followers here. First of all, a cult would be outside of Christianity and a cult leader would be a false teacher and his followers would beutter undiscerning fools. Your comparison therefore, is way off base - and what do you mean "for our own end"? I certainly hope "we" do send many people here to learn the truth about their need for Christ Jesus as JM is so biblically adept at explaining it. That is not selfish (for our own end) that is to show others that they are fallen sinners in need of only the Grace and Salvation that comes from the LORD! Because we are talking about our Salvation in Christ Jesus ALONE, which makes those who believe this way Christians and John MacArthur is a man, chosen by God to be a teacher of the flock. A good one I might add since he follows Gods Word. It's like (to use a comparison) when the Apostle Paul says:

1Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Why? Because Paul was following Christ. I "follow" John MacArthurs teachings - comparing them to the Word of God (as also the followers of the Apostle Paul did) and I find JM is a follower of Christ Jesus. We don't blindly follow anyone's teachings, except as they conform to scripture. Surely, in this day and age, we are very appreciative of having one who sticks to God's Word. A Pastor/Teacher is a position ordained in the body of Christ and with so few faithful ones, it is great to have access to JM's teachings, as we don't all live in his town in California (I live clear on the other side of the continent and others live in/on completely different countries/continents!). I've never thought of steering people here as being "selfish" and for my "own means". May Christ Jesus always be glorified, not any of us, including JM - as he has often said in his sermons.

Also, your comment to Elaine that is she a Christian because of how she responded to Brad on another post....firstly, Brad is a poser. Plain and simple. And if you make that accusation at Elaine, then you should read other comments including mine. None of my comments (harsh as they were) to Brad makes me somehow not a Christian. Do I need to "tame my tongue" in type - certainly I have seen the need for that to happen at times. It's called sin with the tongue (that evil member of mine!).....unless of course you believe we never sin again once born again? My sins are not imputed to me, but they certainly stem from me for which I have and do ask forgiveness.

And I'm quite certain this is a can of worms but what exactly do you mean by you "run a male healing site"?

#47  Posted by Mary Elizabeth Palshan  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 6:58 PM

Dear Bob:

I would have to check into Blackaby's teachings. I, too, have come across so many people who think the Holy Spirit has special revelations outside the Bible. Many of these misinformed folks believe canon is not closed, as well; it seems to be a common thread running through their whole lopsided, miscreant theology. Some even declare that the Holy Spirit does not work in tandem with the Word of God. I am very Leary of these types of teachings.

The Holy Spirit does not speak to us audibly, anything the Spirit has to say is recorded in Scripture **ALONE**. The Reformation lives on. Long live the Reformation! :)

#48  Posted by Mary Elizabeth Palshan  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 7:22 PM

Dear Dee:

Dee said: "IF YOU WANT TO BE UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED THEN YOU "SELL" UNIVERSAL SALVATION."

No truer words were ever spoken, Dee. They say that genius is so simple and right at the tip of our noses, but the average person fails to see it because we are looking for complexity, so said my college Philosophy professor, after reading Josephine the Singer and The Mouse Folk, by Franz Kafka. Your statement is so simple we all should have seen it.

I think BG always wanted notoriety and to be the Evangelist to the worlds elite. So you must sell what people will buy, in order to get what you want. That's the END GAME, self, self, and more self.

Great comment, Dee!

Hi, Shauna! I don’t see where Elaine was off on any of her comments. Peace, Shona.:)

#49  Posted by Fred Butler  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 8:30 PM

Bob,

Did you even bother to read the review of Blackaby's material I linked all the way up under #9?  I think I provided you with some significant criticism of his views that need to be taken seriously. 

 

Fred

#50  Posted by Russell Carroll  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 8:51 PM

Galatians 5:15-21 "If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."

#51  Posted by Janet Young  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 9:20 PM

Russell,

This Scripture certainly applies to the church, but the sad fact is, that not everyone in the church is saved. The NT says that there will be false teachers and they will deceive many. So, defending truth and confronting error is not participating in discord, dissensions, or factions within the true body of Christ. Rather, to defend truth at all costs is the most loving thing one can do for someone who is in error. Many people are concerned that what John says about Billy Graham here is an attack, that it is not loving. Well, did Jesus rebuke the pharisees out of love, or out of hate and pride? Of course it was out of love. Jesus loved the pharisees, and He knew that the only way they would even remotely become aware of their true standing before God was to confront them head-on. He even called them a brood of vipers! That certainly does not sound loving, but Jesus said it, so we must biblically update our definition of love. Generally it includes being gentle in manner, but sometimes, against heresy, it involves sternly saying the harsh (in that it is counter-cultural, counter-intuitive, and counter-self), narrow truth of Scripture. Imagine you see a blind friend about to walk off a cliff. Which is more loving? To watch them walk off the cliff or to call out to them that they are about to walk off a cliff? What about when they don't believe you, and you have to shout at them, even run and aggressively pull them from the edge? It is far more loving to stand for the truth, then to let unbiblical thinking by professing Christians go unnoticed.

Jude 22-23: "And to some have compassion, making a distinction; but to others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh."

We should NEVER sacrifice truth for unity, even within the church--especially within the church! If error is allowed to permeate, then the church will become weak, and her witness to the world will be skewed (as in many cases it has already become so). we need to be discerning, always standing for the truth, so that we may be a true witness.

#52  Posted by Shauna Bryant  |  Monday, March 01, 2010at 9:49 PM

*Shauna Bryant*

Blog question: Why do many of today’s evangelicals seem to prefer the Dark Ages to the Reformation? Why do they prefer obscurity to clarity, darkness rather than light?

Maybe....personal responsibility is an issue? I understand many people to be saying, when I talk to them, that having the Bible (unlike the dark ages) has made people more "divisive" because they claim anyone can make scripture say what they want and so no one really knows the truth and if we could all unite under one "teacher" then things would be better, because they say we can't really know for ourselves anyway. Well, of course, I agree - that is, if we were all to unite under Christ Jesus. But that isn't what they mean. If you then ask, "Well, if we can't know for ourselves as you claim then how can we know just because some man - a sinner like us - tells us what to believe and do?" They will invariably just say that at least "We will all get along then". But what they will not hear is that we can all get along In Christ -if we believe His Gospel and do not add to it. But that is too "divisive" again they say. It's like talking in a circle with some people. Their own "belief" in "anything and everything" leads them about going nowhere, but they willl not stop and THINK. Using logic you can show them how that doesn't work - bu they will not acknowledge it.

I had a conversation about the gospel with a woman who believed all paths and all religions will lead to heaven, because we can't really know what is true and all things, she claimed, have "some" truth in them and that would be enough. So all people would be saved. Universalism. Well, that is what folks like BG and many others believe and do teach. They have had a large impact on people, so really the post moderns just took it from there. If universalism is the case, they believe, then all paths would lead to heaven so they mash it all up and anything goes. It then becomes experiental, with no real truth.....and that is back to the dark ages. But these poeple claim it is easier to believe in a God who saves everyone no matter what they believe or do. I ask them, if that is the case, then why did God send His only begotten Son to die on the cross and say that He is the ONLY way........? Why did He have to die for our sins if it wasn't the only way? That is calling God a liar. But the response I get back is, "Well, that's a way for those who want to believe that way and He was a good teacher so.....". That kind of comment really chaps me because they are parsing words there. They will not believe what Jesus said, yet they will turn around and say "Well, he was a good teacher - a prophet even". But if they don't believe Him, then they just made Him into a prophet that didn't tell the truth - what sense does that make? None.

God's Word has an answer for everything - He had it all down before hand so we would know.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

#54  Posted by Shauna Bryant  |  Tuesday, March 02, 2010at 3:30 AM

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#55  Posted by Shauna Bryant  |  Tuesday, March 02, 2010at 3:31 AM

Well Moira, I'm sure you and your husband already know this.....but it's better to be ostracized by men and accepted by God - then to be accepted by men and ostracized by God!

Shauna Bryant

#56  Posted by Shauna Bryant  |  Tuesday, March 02, 2010at 3:54 AM

Russell,

By quoting the verse you did, do you mean to imply that contending for the faith is causing dissension? Because if so that is off base. We are to contend earnestly for the faith-we are to mark those who have another message(doctrine/gospel).......and those who have "another doctrine/gospel" are the ones causing dissension by not believing what God has said. And pointing that out is not being divisive, contentious, factious or causing discord - but rather, the ones promoting false doctrines and false gospels are the ones doing those things. It always amazes me that when you stand up for Gods Word that some person will invariable cherry pick a verse and basically say "bad Christian(slap hand) - you need to get along with everyone and who are you to judge a false gospel anyway". No. Contending is biblical and again I say, it is those who promote false doctrines that are the divisive ones.

That passage was written to the brethren....believers....regarding other believers.....We are not to consider those with a false gospel "brethren".

Romans 16:17-18

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Janet #51: All I can add is AMEN!

Shauna

#57  Posted by Rick White  |  Tuesday, March 02, 2010at 5:00 AM

Bob,

I have to admit that I really didn't know much about Henry Blackaby's teaching when I made my last post.I have since done some research on his teachings and I now believe John MacArthur was more than gracious in his remarks about his teachings.Henry Blackaby's teachings have a very mystical bent to them.I read many reviews of his books that showed many examples of this aberrant mystical approach.They showed many examples of the misuse of scripture and glaring eisegesis.Scripture is not for our own personal interpretation 2 Peter 1:19-21.This type of teaching must be exposed regardless of who the guilty party is Titus 1:9.It's time the church of God started cleaning up it's act and started teaching sound doctrine Jude 3.

#59  Posted by Diana Yochem  |  Tuesday, March 02, 2010at 6:49 AM

As a young christian, I am finding the off topic arguing very disheartening. Hebrews 13:9 comes to mind-Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them.

Shouldn't we all examine ourselves? 2Corinthians 13:5-Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.

And isn't that test in James? Doesn't it apply to all professing christians, from John MacArthur, to Billy Graham, to myself? Shouldn't this be done often, not just once?

#60  Posted by Mark Smith  |  Tuesday, March 02, 2010at 7:14 AM

I have not had the time to read all the posts, but the Bible is clear in what it teaches. Remember these words are the voice of God.

Galatians 1:8-9

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

#61  Posted by Gary Dilworth  |  Tuesday, March 02, 2010at 8:33 AM

Comment deleted by administrator.
#62  Posted by Elaine Bittencourt  |  Tuesday, March 02, 2010at 10:43 AM

# 59 - Diana, hi!

I consider myself a young Christian as well. I apologize for the off-topic arguing, and I agree with you about being disheartening, although I don't see it as strange doctrine. Paul was referring to the false teachings. The arguing, I agree, doesn't add anything to godliness, which reminds me of Phil. 4:8

Grace and Peace,

E.

#63  Posted by Shona Cohen  |  Tuesday, March 02, 2010at 12:12 PM

Elaine,

As I said on the other thread, there is only one judge. But quick and instant to discern, yes, hence my comments on BG. Not that this life matters, bar waht we do with it for God, that instancy to know/decide - God given, has saved my life many times, my kids lifes, other kids and other women and men, so im not about to slow it down, said with kindness btw.

Re the rest of the topic, ref the book and where that discussion led to. My sincere apologies to you. I am talking to GTY now re the product in question. I do get it re the links. I do not normally read any books at all anymore apart from the Bible itself. Thus cos I tend to know the back and middle from the first page, without fail, and am tired of reading the lie in them somewhere or everywhere over and over - and one book contains all we need anyway, as we agree. However, when i first came here, a change, i bookmarked, till i had cash again, many books to buy, for others and self, AS JM talks Truth as it is - an extreme rarity, so far from throwing out the entire 'gty bookshelf' - it is my intention to build it inside my home for my children, and to give to others. with love too. Not just books, but the study Bibles too. I just bought all my kids new Bibles for their Christmas presents, but have immediately ordered JM's study Bible(s) on top, and would have been my first and instant choice for study Bibles had i been here pre Christmas.

I questioned, one book, and in a thread of questioning. The spirit convicted me for that very fast Elaine. If a product caused me discomfort in a ministry of such Truth, perhaps i should have bought it, in spite of not needing it, first, before commenting. Secondly, it was wrong of me, when so admiring of JM's stuff and edified, (he's like reading myself word for word in so many articles in the points made and comments, cept he is a scripture master/teacher, i most certainly am not, and im very used to being called insane and loathed by many for saying exactly the same things. Aint we all when in Truth! (scuse digress!)..so yes, completely wrong of me to raise voice on one thing i query rather than to speak out firmly for all the amazing stuff that is evident/apparent first! Therefore, repent on this I have done - and my apology also therefore extends to John himself and GTY ministry.

My post on that subject, started stuff becoming of the flesh rather than spirit, so i take responsibility for that which ensued. Sorry, deeply. Shall reply to Shauna, but I hope in my apology we can move on from such digressions.

#64  Posted by Ron Osborne  |  Tuesday, March 02, 2010at 12:25 PM

Interestingly, I just received a free copy of John MacArthur's new book: "The Gospel According to Jesus" from the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association. Curious.

#65  Posted by Elaine Bittencourt  |  Tuesday, March 02, 2010at 12:58 PM

# 63 - Shona.

Yes, we shall move on. The truth is, I am no different from you, I cannot say that I haven't been there before. I thank God that He's been so patient with me, so gracious, and even in the discipline I rejoice.

I don't read/listen only to Pastor MacArthur, but your comment on I repeating his words made me stop, think and ponder. Which is good. If that's true (I don't really know), it's because he says things so much more eloquently that I could ever do, even though the same thing is in my heart. When I hear the Word explained, it's like having a bulb light blink on top of my head, and all of a sudden all the pieces fit, I know you know what I mean. Then, when I am reading the Bible things just come together in a wonderful way. I thank God for that, and for the faithful men that have (and still are) sacrificing so much for their love for the Lord.

I have the habit of checking people's associations. =) So I checked a few websites, and was pleased to find other godly men who are faithful to the Word. If you want to check them out, visit: resolved.org, t4g.org, ligonier.org, etc. I have also enjoyed the preaching of Paul Washer. John Piper has a solid ministry (check out Matt Chandler as well), but I am not sure why Mark Driscoll has been preaching with Piper's ministry. I have to look into that.

Gotta go.

Grace and Peace,

E.

#66  Posted by Luisa Lopez  |  Tuesday, March 02, 2010at 1:01 PM

To Dave Colland #8: You said:

"Mary, you may not be so quick to send positive messages to Dr. MacArthur if you were to understand his biblical position on female pastors/ministers. He does not believe that scripture supports women in the pulpit."

Your comment was in response to another lady commentor, so I hope you'll forgive me for replying to your comment. But here it goes: I am a woman and a Christian. All Christians are (or ought to be) in agreement that the Word of God is infallible and inerrant. John MacArthur doesn't believe that scripture supports women in the pulpit because the Word of God says that women do not belong in the pulpit. Pastor MacArthur didn't arbitrarily invent that particular rule because he doesn't appreciate women -- it's because he rightly divides the Word and preaches it regardless of political correctness. I encourage you to keep seeking the truth of God's Word, because it is inerrant, perfect, and will never fall victim to the sensitivities of this world or those who think they know better than God. May the Lord lead you into all truth and all righteousness as you seek Him! ~Lu~

#67  Posted by Luisa Lopez  |  Tuesday, March 02, 2010at 1:25 PM

38 Posted by Mary Elizabeth Tyler:

Agreed, Mary, on your comments re: BG. God Himself will judge him. We can all pray that he repent from his error, and that he will yield to the Lordship of Christ. I pray a bold servant of Christ would reason with him so that he'll turn away from his ecumenical slide into heresy. In the meantime, kudos to JM for contending for the faith and sounding the alarm. Rest assured, all you who claim that students and hearers of JM's ministry are cultic -- the day JM turns away from the Word of God is the day I personally, with a heavy heart, will turn away from JM. But praise God, that hasn't happened, so I will continue listening, reading, and learning from this faithful servant of God.

#68  Posted by Shona Cohen  |  Tuesday, March 02, 2010at 2:43 PM

"You falsely accused Elaine of bringing in the "army stunt of we" into her response - yet it was you who began the "we" in your post."

I did, but there is now a post missing, correctly, which removes the elucidation of why i levelled that comment. but time to move on!

"I'm not sure who all you are referring to exactly by "you guys", but I have read and re-read these posts and I fail to see cult like followers here. First of all, a cult would be outside of Christianity and a cult leader would be a false teacher and his followers would beutter undiscerning fools. Your comparison therefore, is way off base - and what do you mean "for our own end"?"

Disagree and not what i meant or was saying. You need to turn your comment/assumption upside down 180 degrees, totally, to get what i was saying. I most certainly did not, nor would not make any inference than JM was running a cult or a false teacher. Infact, i will go so far as to say it is THEE first ministry, outwith scripture itself, that i have found online or off which does not fall to such ills somewhere along the line. That is not to say more do not exist, but it is certainly the first one i have ever come across out of the zillions seen.

True leaders in Christ very often are followed in a fleshly and cultlike fashion, it is something we need to guard against if we get such following and point to Christ, always, as John does, emphatically and always. So i meant the opposite of what you think i meant. A cultlike following from some can occur to the True too, sometimes it is a natural first reaction in a True coming to Christ, othertimes something else is at work. But there endeth that subject too i hope. The concern here is those following the not True - BG's of the world and to pray that followers of such people in seeing they were deluded and fooled do not do the proverbial throwing baby out with bathwater cos their false leader only ever had bathwater and keep the Baby (which cannot be separated from the Christ on the cross or the risen Christ) and move on to Truth with a humility rather than exit through pride in their wrong choices. There is a very fine line between following Christ and following man in cultlike fashion, not cos man is running a cult, but because the heart is deceitful.

"I certainly hope "we" do send many people here to learn the truth about their need for Christ Jesus as JM is so biblically adept at explaining it. That is not selfish (for our own end) that is to show others that they are fallen sinners in need of only the Grace and Salvation that comes from the LORD! Because we are talking about our Salvation in Christ Jesus ALONE, which makes those who believe this way Christians and John MacArthur is a man, chosen by God to be a teacher of the flock. A good one I might add since he follows Gods Word. It's like (to use a comparison) when the Apostle Paul says:

1Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Why? Because Paul was following Christ. I "follow" John MacArthurs teachings - comparing them to the Word of God (as also the followers of the Apostle Paul did) and I find JM is a follower of Christ Jesus. We don't blindly follow anyone's teachings, except as they conform to scripture. Surely, in this day and age, we are very appreciative of having one who sticks to God's Word. A Pastor/Teacher is a position ordained in the body of Christ and with so few faithful ones, it is great to have access to JM's teachings, as we don't all live in his town in California (I live clear on the other side of the continent and others live in/on completely different countries/continents!). I've never thought of steering people here as being "selfish" and for my "own means". May Christ Jesus always be glorified, not any of us, including JM - as he has often said in his sermons."

Who are you arguing with? Me or God? Said kindly again Re the JM comments, could not agree more. I'd direct anyone here in a second! I happen to be in the UK, but im no further apart from anyone than any of us is in the Lord. Earth distance just does not apply to me, no more than human physical touch does. I got here through my partner who happens to be on the opposite side of the planet to me, entirely for now!

"Also, your comment to Elaine that is she a Christian because of how she responded to Brad on another post....firstly, Brad is a poser. Plain and simple. And if you make that accusation at Elaine, then you should read other comments including mine. None of my comments (harsh as they were) to Brad makes me somehow not a Christian."

I dont find your comments to Brad harsh at all, nor Elaines either. Misled maybe, id call him worse, but i wouldnt leave it at that. I'd quantify why and offer the alternate way. What does poser mean? Question rhetoric, but think about it, why call him that? What in you raised that comment to him. BG is a poser! But when it comes to Brad - who is in a better position Shauna - the man that assumes wrongly he has landed (BG) or the man that is yet to come to flight (Brad)?

I've known many Brads in my time, and much, much, much worse - don't throw them out eh, said with a smile. That is not what a woman does. Guard her heart against for sure on personal levels, but give to heal because a woman is also a mother. If Brad were your son would you be so fast to offer such comment? Said again, with kindness.

" Do I need to "tame my tongue" in type - certainly I have seen the need for that to happen at times. It's called sin with the tongue (that evil member of mine!).....unless of course you believe we never sin again once born again? My sins are not imputed to me, but they certainly stem from me for which I have and do ask forgiveness."

All very chapter and verse Shauna. Hmm, i have many evil members when it comes to sin, not just my tongue. Albeit, one of my biggest issueshas been to drop a word that is a curse when most passioned in Christ, the old me would step in, and it took some severe work by the Spirit to get that out of me. LOL - re not sin again, Shauna, when i came to Christ many years ago i was absolutely nuts, physically crippled, spiritually crippled, suicidal and probably had more demons than your average maths teacher could count and noone could understand why i was alive still at all or keep gettng up, the answers to those questions are of course, obvious - no i certainly do not believe we never sin again, but the regeneration and cleansing process is most supernatural and phenomenal indeed. I live utterly preoccupied now 24/7, yes, even in sleep im wide awake, i hope that answers your question. There is nothing good comes from me, only God and if me operates, well thats bad news.

"And I'm quite certain this is a can of worms but what exactly do you mean by you "run a male healing site"?"

Offended, but i do not desire to discuss further cos it is off topic. Turn your comment 180 degrees again away from your assumption! Yes, many women do see what i do as a can of worms entirely cos once boys are men they no longer have a want or vulnerability for girls, they want the woman that is of God instead - and by that i do not mean me. I, though, not, i, but him, do a lot more, with women and others too on indepth abuse and many other things, but my primary gifts always were getting people out of cults and healing men, and healing abuse/separation. If taking men out of the cult of Eve to Christ and God is a can of worms to you, so be it, but this which you call can of worms is gifts from the Spirit. Said kindly. I do deeply understand why your heart defensively reared to an opposite assumption. I am very loathed amongst 'goddess' culture and cult for obvious reasons - showing the face of God, not mines. HTH!

And yeah, God rewarded me for this. As if giving me my life and salvation was not enough, through laying on the floor, giving blood sweat and tears to raise boys to men through Christ - he rewarded me with an absolute gift from him in man. Every day, i ask why God, i dont deserve him, noone ever could, but he asks the same qwuestions too eh and we know it is all and from God. And to go back to your sin question, no, its always a progressive transfomation, and even with my partner and i, neither of us would be recognisable to ourselves or each other at all in the change in a few years, we raise each other up all the time in Christ, thats how it goes, through him with him, in him...

But, id be without man forevemore other than with him - and as for BG's, absolutely not, a defilement and he is a good example of what women need to be very very aware of, men that come forward proclaiming to be in Christ when not.

As the Church does too, it all relates...

God Bless and hope we can move on.

#69  Posted by Shauna Bryant  |  Tuesday, March 02, 2010at 3:45 PM

Hey Elaine,

Mark Driscoll. Well, I think John Piper, as one of his mentors should have said something a LONG time ago about Mark. Unfortunately not many men (including Mark's mentor John Piper) are willing to take a stand against vulgarity by Pastors. John MacArthur did though.)

Shauna

#70  Posted by Gabriel Powell  |  Tuesday, March 02, 2010at 4:00 PM

Mark Driscoll is Off Topic. No more comments about him, please.

#71  Posted by Shauna Bryant  |  Tuesday, March 02, 2010at 4:21 PM

Did anyone watch some of those you tube videos with Graham and Schuller? I watched and BG said "They (as in unbelievers of the Gospel) are members of the body of Christ even if they don't know the name of Jesus. He also said "That's what God is doing today". He says God is calling out people for his name and they don't even have to know the Son. Like so many of those people who talk about "what God is doing now" and it isn't in the Bible!!! They never say it's a new revelation or anything, he just says it's what God is doing today. Very, very disturbing. I don't think BG seemed 'all there either', how sad.

Shauna

#72  Posted by Mary Elizabeth Palshan  |  Tuesday, March 02, 2010at 4:25 PM

This is an interesting article I found on the Internet the other day. Protestant Pastors conducted the survey. I am so thankful that John MacArthur, John Piper, Chuck Swindoll, Charles Stanley, and David Jeremiah made the top ten. This just shows how much influence BG has had in Evangelical Christianity, and the difficulty in pointing out his error to the rest of the world is exacerbated by all of this.

Protestant Pastors Name Graham Most Influential Living PreacherBy LifeWay Christian ResourcesNASHVILLE, Tenn. – He has preached the gospel to more than 200 million people in 185 lands and, at 91, still maintains that his one purpose in life is "to help people find a personal relationship with God, which, I believe, comes through knowing Christ."In telephone interviews conducted in November 2009, Protestant pastors were asked to "name the top three living Christian preachers that most influence you." Twenty-one percent of pastors surveyed said Graham – that’s nearly three times the number who named Charles R. Swindoll, prominent pastor, author and host of the radio Bible-teaching ministry Insight for Living.Graham, who served as pastor early in his ministry, has led major evangelistic campaigns around the world, authored 27 books and counseled many U.S. presidents. His appeal to both religious and secular audiences is evidenced by the wide range of organizations that have honored him, including the Ronald Reagan Presidential Foundation and the George Washington Carver Memorial Institute.While Graham’s position at the top may have been expected, the list as a whole was a bit surprising for its lack of diversity, according to Ed Stetzer, director of LifeWay Research. "Considering our sample includes liberal and conservative, all races and ethnicities, mainline and evangelical, we were surprised that the list looked like mainstream Christian radio and publishing and was not more representative," he said. "Of course, the majority who answer drive the final numbers, but I was expecting more diversity in the responses."Rounding out the top 10, after Graham and Swindoll, were:- Charles Stanley, senior pastor of First Baptist Church, Atlanta, and founder of In Touch Ministries.- Rick Warren, senior pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, Calif., and author of the best-selling book, "The Purpose-Driven Life."- John MacArthur, pastor-teacher of Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, Calif., and president and featured teacher of the Grace to You ministry.- Barbara Brown Taylor, religion teacher at Piedmont College in northeast Georgia and author of 12 books including "An Altar in the World."- David Jeremiah, founder of Turning Point Radio and Television Ministries and senior pastor of Shadow Mountain Community Church in San Diego County, Calif.- Max Lucado, minister of writing and preaching at the Oak Hills Church in San Antonio, Texas, and the recipient of three Christian Book of the Year awards.- John Piper, pastor for preaching at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis and author of more than 30 books, including "Desiring God."- Andy Stanley, senior pastor of North Point Community Church, Buckhead Church, and Browns Bridge Community Church – all in the Atlanta area – and founder of North Point Ministries."Studies like these can help us see who is shaping the thinking of Protestant pastors today," said Stetzer. "Since survey participants are not picking from a predetermined list, the people named must be widely known. Knowing who is shaping Protestant thinking shows us what type of direction to expect from the nation’s pastors."Participants in the survey also were asked to "name the top three living Christian leaders that most influence you." Graham again topped the list, but other names emerged as well, including James Dobson and Desmond Tutu. For complete results, and for more information on the survey, visit LifeWayResearch.com.LifeWay Research conducted a telephone survey among a random sample of 1,002 Protestant pastors Nov. 5-12, 2009. The sample provides 95 percent confidence that the sampling error does not exceed +3.1 percent. Usable responses to the open- ended question about Christian preachers were received from 868 pastors. Usable responses to the open-ended question about Christian leaders were received from 765 pastors.

#73  Posted by Mary Elizabeth Palshan  |  Tuesday, March 02, 2010at 4:29 PM

Sorry, for some reason this system will not accept paragraphs.

Yes, Shauna, I have been aware of it for some time. I keep **praying** for his soul, he has not just made a benign blurb, but denied the ONLY WAY, Jesus Christ.

Love your posts, sister!!!!

Mary

#74  Posted by Shona Cohen  |  Tuesday, March 02, 2010at 4:32 PM

have we forgotten the 12 ordinary men here? goodnight and god bless

#75  Posted by Dee Hendon  |  Tuesday, March 02, 2010at 4:54 PM

THANK YOU ELIZABETH. WE ALL NEED TO REMEMBER JUST HOW NARROW THE GATE IS...

#76  Posted by Dee Hendon  |  Tuesday, March 02, 2010at 4:56 PM

OOPS.. I SHOULD HAVE SAID MARY ELIZABETH (PRETTY NAME)

#77  Posted by Shauna Bryant  |  Tuesday, March 02, 2010at 7:00 PM

Yes Mary that's right - he denied that a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is the ONLY way. It's disturbing too when someone of Bg's stature say's (as in the article you put up) "to help people find a personal relationship with God, which, I believe, comes through knowing Christ." That "I believe' in there, taken with his other statements, is very subtle, but full of meaning. It's like he is saying just I believe you (know God) through Christ. He does not say that Gods Word says the ONLY way is through Christ Jesus. The Bible is clear

Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

1John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Most of the religions and all the main ones believe in a god. Ecumenism/Universalism slowly removes Jesus Christ from the equation in an effort to bring everyone together - they would then all agree. However, then the god they will all know will be 'the god of this world' and not the God of the Bible. Many people do say - why can't we just talk about God, Jesus is too divisive. Yes, the TRUTH cuts to the heart of the matter.

Luke 12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

Shauna

#78  Posted by Trevia Jimenez  |  Tuesday, March 02, 2010at 7:24 PM

Bob - with all due respect; if you haven't heard the comments how can you have so much to say on the matter? Proverbs 18:13 warns us against making decisions or forming opinions without knowing the facts.

"I am not certain of all of the specifics relative to Dr. Graham's remarks, however, if occurs to me that this is very sad, an attack on someone who appears to have served the LORD so faithfully, and with personal integrity so long."

With all due respect, your comments are irresponsible, Bob. JM doesn't need me to defend him but I defend all Christians who read their Bibles and DO what they say. Frankly, I'm weary of the uninformed and compromising in the pews. JM is correct to bring this issue to light - regardless of anyone's love of any man. I personally heard the Graham/Schuller conversation. What JM read is exactly what was said. Further, there are clips all over YouTube of Dr. Graham making these very same comments years ago.

What is sad is that your admiration of Dr. Graham has been set ABOVE the commandments of scripture. I doubt you realize what these statements of Dr. Graham mean; to say that anyone can go to heaven without having to repent of their sin and receive the gift of Salvation is to say that God the Father allowed His Son to be murdered for NOTHING. Further, to take that position is to call Jesus a liar. Did He not say that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life - that NO MAN goes to the Father but through Him? Finally, I remind you, sir, of the Book of Jude. Either figure out what the Faith is and contend for it, or stand aside. Pastor MacArthur said nothing wrong.

#79  Posted by Shauna Bryant  |  Tuesday, March 02, 2010at 7:26 PM

An interesting array of quotes by BG concerning his belief in ecumenism and his support by and admiration for the Roman Catholic Church. Here is one of many you'll see - BG in discussing Pope John Paul II's visit to the U.S.A., said: "I think the American people are looking for a leader, a moral and spiritual leader that believes something. And the Pope does. … Thank God, I've got somebody to quote now with some real authority." http://www.cephas-library.com/evangelists/evangelists_graham_and_the_pope.html

An interesting speech a Cardinal gave when asked to address the Pope and the Cardinals regrading the RCC and their goal and work towards the unity of all. http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/ECUMENSM.HTM

The wide road has been paved and is being made ever wider for a very long time and many of our Western Christian Churches - are doing the work they have been assigned by the RCC.

Shauna

#80  Posted by Jennifer Wigginton  |  Tuesday, March 02, 2010at 7:47 PM

I'm extremely new to the GTY blog, and I'm soaking up as much knowledge as I can, first from the Bible, but also from people I trust! We belong to a church that seems to subscribe to the idea that God can speak to people in other ways besides through His word. I hope this isn't too off-topic, but I saw this topic mentioned in another post and wanted some more info. How would I defend the position of God only speaking through His word and not by using other methods if I am ever faced with a debate on this? It makes sense to me that He would only speak this way, but I'm not sure I could actually come up with why I believe it, scripturally-speaking. Does that make sense? I've never thought about this subject very much, and it's probably time I did!

#81  Posted by Shauna Bryant  |  Tuesday, March 02, 2010at 8:46 PM

Jennifer,

Welcome! We are to test everything against scripture. Be a Berean like in Acts 17:11 "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Everything taught in the New Testament has it's roots in the Old Testament and that is where the Apostles went to show forth the teaching/doctrines they received from Christ Jesus. If teh Apostles used the Old Testament to write the New, then why would anyone need something other than Gods Word? They wouldn't, unless they were going against Gods Word. And when many do that tehy are very subtle about it. Do not be fooled. Pray. God has communicated His word to us and the Final book was from Jesus Christ Himself. I wonder if some of these churches think he forgot something? He has already told us the ending - from the beginning. John MacArthur has a good sermon on what to look for in a church, you should listen to that. Just copy this link https://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermon+Series/297_What-to-Look-for-in-a-Church and click on listen. I would also recommend you read the Statement of Faith and look at the church's teachings. If they add anything to the gospel or if they add anything to Gods Word, if tehy are ecumenical, then you should leave. I don't know exactly what you mean by "other ways". Bottom line, whatever anyone says always - always- MUST line up with Gods Word. There is no "New Word" or anything like that going on. I do not know what kind of church you are in or where you are in your Christian walk, but I would be cautious and remember we are to believe.....not "feel" or have "a mystical experience" like a lot of churches will teach today. If you are in a charismatic or even 'quasi-charismatic' church then I would listen to: https://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermon+Series/219_Charismatic-Chaos in fact, I would listen to that one too because the first&second sermons are on if God is still giving Revelations & Prophecies. Plus, it would be good to listen to for discernment, so you can spot the errors. Many churches Jenifer, are on the wide road - I hope yours is not one of them, but if it is then you can still find a solid church. Good luck!

Shauna Bryant

#82  Posted by Shauna Bryant  |  Tuesday, March 02, 2010at 8:50 PM

Jennifer,

Listen to this one too, you'll find it helpful in your searching about your church. https://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/42-122_The-Gospel-in-Perspective?q=The+Gospel

Shauna

#83  Posted by Bob Payne  |  Wednesday, March 03, 2010at 4:54 AM

Trevia Jimenez | Tuesday, March 02, 2010 at 7:24 PM |

With all due respect, where is "Grace" from God's people for Dr. Graham. You are correct, I have not heard them, BUT, I have heard Dr. Graham preach in person three times, and many others via the media, and read his books. It is interesting to me that in a blog under the banner of "Grace To You" there seems to be very little grace for a servant of God, who has led millions to the Lord over a very long life; a life of integrity and character, a life that has never been question over his integrity and his heart. Someone wrote a couple of thousnad years ago soemthing like this, "grace according to the need of the moment....." Ephesians 4. Can you, or anyone, tell me that his heart is not pure; can you honestly tell me that ANYONE, including John MacArthur, has been used of God more powerfully than Billy Graham? Has any ministry been more open with its operation and/or finances. Dr. Graham's ministry has the "grace" to provide JMs materials. (Lastly, as a side note, back to JM & Henry Blackaby; I still can't get past the fact that JM actually preached in Dr. B's home church (could it be that JM and his handlers knew that in this church he would have access to another audience of 3,000 prospective clients/followers), yet JM speaks negatively of Dr. B. Also, JM refers to Dr. B's "curriculum and "bumper stickers" etc that never happened.........while JM and GTY lead the world in "marketing" their material. I find it interesteing that in order to join this blog, I had to provide a "billing address". Who are the real money changers here? GTY!

#84  Posted by Fred Butler  |  Wednesday, March 03, 2010at 6:02 AM

Jennifer,

We hope you stick around.  One of the best ways to learn is to "hear" fellow believers discuss the application of scripture. 

As to your question about the Bible being the only and final authority, check out some resources we have at GTY:

https://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/90-323

Ultimately, what you are wanting to consider is how to determine God's will.  John has done some classic messages on that subject:

https://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/TMC105

https://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/80-24_Making-the-Hard-Decisions-Easy

Then finally, our executive director here at GTY, Phil Johnson, has done a message on the surety of God's Word you may find helpful:

http://gracelifepulpit.media.s3.amazonaws.com/GL-095-000-PJ.mp3

Fred

#85  Posted by Rick White  |  Wednesday, March 03, 2010at 6:36 AM

Bob,

Obviously you no nothing about this ministry.Today I do support this ministry financially but I have not always been able to do so.Several times GTY sent me books,Bibles,etc for free.You obviously feel you have to take cheapshots at this ministry because a couple of your heroes have been exposed for teaching error.I would think you should be thankful that someone is out there revealing these doctrinal errors.You keep mentioning that John MacArthur has preached in Henry Blackaby's church.So What.I'm sure he didn't just show up without being invited.So,instead of taking cheapshots at this ministry maybe you should be contacting Henry Blackaby's ministry or Billy Graham's ministry and ask them why they are compromising God's word.I'm sure if you could show John MacArthur where he was wrong pertaining to the scriptures he would change.And if you had a problem with giving your "billing address" then you shouldn't have given it.I have been receiving materials from this ministry for almost 20 years and haven't received a bill yet.The only money they have received from me was out of a grateful heart for the great biblical instruction I have received from them.You ask if anyone can tell you if Billy Graham's heart is not pure.None of us can tell what is in a man's heart,only God can.That is not the point.John MacArthur did not attack the man's heart, he exposed his error in his teaching.Again,like I pointed out to you earlier Paul even confronted Peter when he deviated from the pure gospel of Christ Galatians 2:11-21.One of the purposes of scripture is to correct error 2 Timothy 3:16;Titus 1:9.

#86  Posted by Rick White  |  Wednesday, March 03, 2010at 7:31 AM

Jennifer,

One of my favorite scriptures for showing scriptural sufficiency is 2 Timothy 3:15-17.Another great resource is John MacArthur's Sufficiency In Christ.I hope you stick around.You'll learn alot.I know I sure have.And not just from John MacArthur but from many of those who post on this blog.

#87  Posted by Trevia Jimenez  |  Wednesday, March 03, 2010at 7:40 AM

Bob Payne,

Ah! You've ignored the scripture that I posted. I was expecting that. I'll post the URLs myself so that there's no further dispute:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdhDnPeIOn0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axxlXy6bLH0

The facts are that BG said exactly what JM quoted him as saying. At this point you have a choice - admit your error or continue building straw men. This thread is not about 'billing addresses' or any other obfuscations that you wish to present. JM did not say one word about BGs heart or thoughts but about what BG said. That is what the issue is. I agree with Rick White in saying that I have never received mail from GTY.

#88  Posted by Trevia Jimenez  |  Wednesday, March 03, 2010at 7:44 AM

Rick,

Thank you for suggesting that one. You might enjoy JM's 'Does the Truth Matter Anymore?'. It's a five-part DVD series which is absolutely excellent! Last time I checked, GTY no longer carries it but it can still be ordered from CrossTV.

#89  Posted by Travis Allen  |  Wednesday, March 03, 2010at 7:56 AM

Trevia, Rick, et al,

You can watch the 5-part series, Does the Truth Matter Anymore?, for free in the video section of our website. They're listed under "Study."

Travis Allen
Director of Internet Ministry

#90  Posted by Rick White  |  Wednesday, March 03, 2010at 8:10 AM

Trevia,

You're right about that DVD series.I actually have Parts 1 and 2.But I will check out Parts 3-5 here on the website.

Travis,

Thanks for the tip.I'll check it out.

#91  Posted by Fred Butler  |  Wednesday, March 03, 2010at 9:17 AM

Bob asks,

I still can't get past the fact that JM actually preached in Dr. B's home church (could it be that JM and his handlers knew that in this church he would have access to another audience of 3,000 prospective clients/followers), yet JM speaks negatively of Dr. B. Also, JM refers to Dr. B's "curriculum and "bumper stickers" etc that never happened.........while JM and GTY lead the world in "marketing" their material. I find it interesteing that in order to join this blog, I had to provide a "billing address". Who are the real money changers here? GTY!

 

I for one would be curious as to the circumstances of John speaking at his church.  Speaking as an invited guest at the church where Henry Blackaby is a member does not in any way, or should it imply, an endorsement of his ministry or principles he teaches regarding knowing God's will.  John is invited to speak in many venues.  Sometimes outside ministries use the church facilities because it is large enough to hold their expected attendance.  Other times John happens to know the pastor of the church, or the church has invited him to speak.  A number of years ago, John was invited to speak at a conservative Jewish synagogue.  He went, after making known to the leadership where he stood on matters of Jesus and that he would not back away from his message of even conservative Jews are in need of Christ in spite of being at their synagogue.  They said they understood, expected no less from him, and told him to come anyways.  John did and preached the gospel to a large group of conservative, Torah believing Jews.  So just because John speaks at a place where a well know personality attends doesn't automatically mean John agrees with what that person believes, or the overall church for that matter.  It is a bit odd to conclude such an thing. 

As to John's mention of Blackaby's materials being turned into bumper sticker slogans, I want to see or hear what he actually said, so do you have a specific link you can point us to?  You state it was some Q&A thing, but I can't find what you mean.  What was the point John was making that would cause him to say what he said?

 That aside, I can tell you I have personally seen "Experiencing God" gear like tee shirts and stickers sold at our local retail Christian bookstore.  Perhaps Blackaby's ministry doesn't sell such material directly, but someone does. 

Fred

#92  Posted by Shona Cohen  |  Wednesday, March 03, 2010at 12:45 PM

Hi Elaine,Yes, that really makes sense what you say about the light bulb. I don't have tv now, but there used to be a ridiculous tv show over here called 'this is your life' whereby they plucked one nomadic celeb out after another and did a nonsense exhalt of their life and worshipped and rejoiced them for all the wrong kind of tears. It would have been better called. 'this is your lie'! I've been priveleged with more experiences than 99.9 % of the population, as its often put, and there aint none of it, good, bad, and ugly, not in scripture. Never is. Everyone's jigsaw to Truth, life, meaning, purpose is right there. Really nice to read you are having that experience with the Word and God - doing things the right way:-) People need taken apart and put back together the right way - Truth does that. I know so many people who sit doing jigsaws, of the cardboard cut out type, regularly, they do it, cos the one piece they always have missing is God. Painting their own pictures - false reality. I truly hope for you with all my heart that the 'light bulb'keeps on brightening and the real jigsaw, you have wisely chosen becomes more colourful. I know it will! thankyou so kindly for the links. I wont promise to get to them right away. I work flat out round the clock (not paid work, monetary,, i dont work in that way), so very importantly, squeeze in time to come here, so it might be some time before i get to check out the links you posted. But i certainly will in time. Thankyou.

Shauna, I said id elucidate on the home schooling. My children ask for it for the right reasons. They are limited by state education, they are tired of having to stand up for truth against teh lie and take on their teachers - particularly of course in 'RE' and 'philosophy' and are now outraged at the enforced sex ed and homosexuality ed for kids from 5 years old, as i too am also outraged. But, as they reach age for gov decisions, they are all placed on gifted kids list, all down on 'elite' courses for best uni places etc. I have 6 and im here physically, single handed wiht them, not an alone parent, but lone in physical terms. (No, i most certainly am not condoning single parentdom - but those are my circs through my old bad choices in past!). I don't work for now cos i have to be home for my children as a priority so i dont think we have the income at all to sustain home schooling successfully. Re the limits in the Education, their first Education is right - God, so although they do right in that, they need to learn not to be so frustrated by the limited wisdom of their educational teachers, but to continue to grow on seeing them as mentors in the second education they fly over the heads off. They do that in coming home and building on the wrongs tehy know they are taught, and i never knock (apart from on Faith fronts) the Educators, but say ok, yes you are right, but lets go find the evidence, so i do teach and build them every night they come home. However, we all have limits and on serious consideration, despite my discomfort with state education, we as a family defy all social rules, ie single parent, six kids, council house cave, blah blah, but gifted and blessed kids, cos we are In Christ, but if took on teaching six children who are an absolute wondrous handful already in their constant deep questioning - there is said with joy - no way i could meet the secondary Educational demands of six such children along with all their other needs. It would crack, therefore let outside demons in. So, i think we have to make use of what is there and on the outrageous fronts, just continue and strengthen. IE, I continue to take on schools and .gov for this nonsense in our schools. My kids become stronger in their fight and stand against evil. The home teaching in God is most importantly there to keep them safe from the evil in Education. The elder ones are very good at absolutely disrupting such classes with the Truth, my younger ones on the sex front have several options, if landed on them not of notice, and i will be ripping into school re our new laws passing, they walk out, i will take them out of school for such lessons, prosecutable, but so be it, but ther younger ones will also become the Truth talkers in long run in school. The good news is whenever the kids rebuke the adults, righteously in school, their peers always turn away from the teacher to the kids who direct to God. Secular schools very much need their mini ministers i guess. They are never disrespectful btw, and commented on that their manners are impeccable even by those they challenge, heavily, so that too, is an important factor in what protects them, as well as the word, cos without that, they would be wide open to das system, tear apart for standing up.

Bob, Such alarming posts. JM has not spoken negatively of BG. He has rather, spoken positively in the Truth of the Lord! You are suffering from pride! You have heard BG, he has led so many etc, therefore he must have a True heart. There is a time in life for many that they have to give up everything they ever believed to be True as teh lie, and perhaps, God willing, that time has come for you. It is not good, but appalling that BG can build up such a following only to drive them over the edge of a cliff! Is he sticking to scripture? No, he is not and on most crucial points at that. Murder. Do you want to maintain pride and be a victim of that?

You write almost as if JM should be grateful to man for the opportunity to minister in these guys joints. He should not, all gratitude and praise is to God. JM owes these men nothing at all. He owes everything to God.

God is in control and he will orchestrate such opportunities for JM cos he is driving the message of Truth through! What is in your heart that you want to defend BG and you want to view with paranoia the ministry of JM to uphold your lie to self?

Bigger than BG, or anyone...well first try Christ and after that try Paul. BG is not teaching that Gospel so he is a fraud! Shines in all the wrong ways!

Have you ever considered that rather than an act of self furthering JM takes up these opportunities on clear terms as acts for God and of love?

I dont want to take the Word down to the flesh, but i get this totally. Love of God and love the enemy. I just had the entire system land on my families head, they acted with evil and appallingly. I could have taken them to a court of the World and left many of them out of jobs. Not my way, i witnessed throughout, stood strong, showed them love and their evil turned to onside, total, it started with my kids and other kids wanting to declare Truth re me and us on town hall steps, so outraged, but now the system is doing that themselves. Truth wins through always. And had i acted out of Love or Truth at any given point, like rats in a corner they would have wanted out and away from us cos they had an allergy to Truth and love, . Not the case, they now invite and recommend me to many many things to help them and exhalt it as a perfect case example of every cross agency .gov input. Cos i speak good of them - no, i speak of their evil totally and their change, so they take totally on the chin now the Truth cos it was all done without harming any of them at all. Love does, and JM acts with love always. He is not just standing up for Truth and keeping God first, but he is actually laying on the floor for BG too, but i guess you cant see that yet. I hope you do in time. What if the world at large just kept accepting BG's 'shining' ministry? His 'flock' would become equal in puppet mastered stringed evil and help to uphold his very own lie - therefore then, does it not just become murder by BG, but Euthanesia and a suicide cult? God willing, you will stop popping the pills! God Bless

#93  Posted by John Joseph  |  Wednesday, March 03, 2010at 3:38 PM

I understand that someone cannot be a muslim, buddhist, hindu etc. and also be a follower of Christ. I would like for someone to clarify for me the true Christian stance on the afterlife of those who have never heard of the Gospel and Jesus Christ. From what i gathered from Mr. Macarthur is that it is impossible for someone who has never heard of the Gospel or Jesus Christ to receive eternal salvation. Am i correct in what i heard, or mistaken? I recently listened to RC Sproul answer the question of 'what about those who have never heard the Gospel or of Jesus Christ" and he stated that if that person recognized the existence of God through the power of creation and lived accordingly that they would be in heaven. Is there a difference between this and what Billy Graham thinks on this particular matter?

#94  Posted by priscillia sanders  |  Wednesday, March 03, 2010at 6:13 PM

Be Ye Holy as I am Holy, this is the command of the Lord God from the old testament. Moses was not obedient and because of his disobedience he was not allow to enter the promise land. Today we think though a person has done "good works" that , that excludes them from being confronted on the word of God, shame on us for thinking that way. Maybe if we were not so concern with "keeping the peace" we would be more concern with declaring all His truth and not be ashamed of The Only true and Living God, and pray and encourage those who are not ashamed or who love Him more than they love the praise of men. We have been duped to believe that we should not confront unsound or error. Our reverence of the Lord God so lacks, because we do not take the stand in regards to error as we should. May we grow in grace and the knowledge of Him and be willing no matter what to stand and live for Him

#95  Posted by James H Russell  |  Wednesday, March 03, 2010at 6:28 PM

Hey, Bob...

You seem to be pretty popular...and folks are "piling on," eh? Well, let me jump in here and maybe take some flak so you can rest. :-)

More than 60 years ago, at a convocation service at Fuller Seminary, Harold Ockenga called for a “new” evangelicalism. While it held to the essential teachings (read fundamental doctrines) of Biblical Christianity, these new evangelicals rejected the sociology and separatism of the fundamentalist, and was willing to dialog on the age of the earth, the Noahic flood, etc. (see Lindsell’s BATTLE FOR THE BIBLE circa 1976),

It is interesting that generation of the Harold Lindsells, the Harold Ockengas, and the Carl F.H. Henrys subscribed to the watershed: Biblical Inerrancy. But subsequent evangelicals would question God’s Word. Hence, the purpose of his book. It was a block buster revealing cracks in our Bibliology,

Within 10 years, the young evangelist Billy Graham’s crusade in NYC (1957) was sponsored by both believers and non-believers. Many refused to cooperate citing disobedience to clear Scripture (e.g. 2 Cor 6:14). Back then it wasn’t what Dr. Graham believed that was questioned: what people could never understand is why he would not separate from those who did not believe as he did.. Did their theologies affect him?

My grandparents listened to Dr. Graham and I think they received Christ because of his telecasts. I am thankful for that, but I recall my grandfather almost cussing at the television when he saw some of the ministers who were sponsoring him. You know, once I read or heard -- I don’t remember -- that Carl F.H. Henry opined what bothered him was that Billy Graham had never worked out his own theology. I don’t have the empirical data, but that could be a clue why BG seemed to be comfortable with all types of theologies (“a-theologies”?)

In the Wilderness wanderings, Moses struck the Rock and out came water, but the 2nd time he was to speak to the Rock. He disobeyed and instead struck the Rock with his staff. Out gushed water. He got results but didn’t do God’s work God’s way, and thereby forfeited the blessing and reward.Why do some believe in the wideness (wider than God has made it) 3/2? And, why is evangelicalism is such a mess 3/3? Like in the Garden, questioning “Hath God said?” to denying (“Ye shall not surely die!”) to disobeying God’s Word.

I am saddened to think that Dr. Graham has had a major role in our evangelical disaster.

#96  Posted by John Joseph  |  Thursday, March 04, 2010at 2:51 AM

My question in post #93 still stands. However, i now have a question for #94 Priscilla, and #95 Bob. Please realize, i am very young in Christ and seeking out the Word. By stating that Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land do you mean Israel or Heaven?

#100  Posted by John Joseph  |  Thursday, March 04, 2010at 4:29 AM

Thank you, Moira. I had gathered the same from Mark 9, but wanted to be sure.

#101  Posted by James H Russell  |  Thursday, March 04, 2010at 4:43 AM

Moria et al:

You are correct that Canaan, the Promised Land, is not a OT picture of Heaven. There was warfare, conquest (e.g. Jericho), defeat (Ai), on-going warfare, sin, etc.

"Oh, that we would have theolgically-trained and Biblically-based song writers. Watch out for "Beulah Land," "On Jordan's Story Banks I Stand," etc.

Re: Moses, he appeared with Elijah at the Transfiguration (Matt.17).

Grace,

Jhr

#102  Posted by Rick White  |  Thursday, March 04, 2010at 7:10 AM

John,

In reference to #93.I did a search to see if I could find where R C Sproul made any statements to that effect and couldn't find any.Could you give us more information about when and in what context R C made those statements?It's kind of hard to respond when we can't be sure of exactly what he said.In reference to what John MacArthur believes,I think we can gather from his many teachings on the subject,that no one can be saved outside of Christ Acts 4:12;John 14:6. It's my understanding that the true OT believer looked forward to the sacrifice of Christ and the true believer today looks back to the sacrifice of Christ for salvation.I hope that helps.

#103  Posted by John Joseph  |  Thursday, March 04, 2010at 9:19 AM

Rick,

Thank you for your insight. I should have posted the audio in my original comment and will be sure to post a link this evening to the audio of RC answering this question when i get home.

#104  Posted by John Joseph  |  Thursday, March 04, 2010at 10:00 AM

Rick,

I decided not to wait until i got home. Here is a link to the audio http://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/objections-answered/the-innocent-native/

It is about 18 minutes long, and is very interesting. I will take back my comment in post #93 about what RC says and, I will not put words in his mouth as he is a great teacher, and i do not know nearly enough about scripture. However, i still do not understand his final answer. I am sorry for my lack of understanding.

#105  Posted by Elaine Bittencourt  |  Thursday, March 04, 2010at 1:04 PM

# 104 - John, thank you so much for posting the link, I was eagerly waiting to check where that RC Sproul comment was coming from.

This is what he says, and I understand why you got the wrong impression. I was like "RC Sproul?" but we never know these days, I guess.

The original question was not the one you posted on # 93, but it was "what about those innocent natives that never heard of Jesus Christ?" RC Sproul says that there are 2 answers to that question, the first one is tricky and designed to estimulate the thought, and is this: those innocent natives get a "free ride" (as RC puts it).

He continues saying: the assumption is that there are innocent natives, innocent people, in the world. Innocent people people do NOT need a Saviour. But according to the Bible there are NO innocent people --> Romans 3:23

He then makes a case for those who never hear about Jesus, how can they be judged for rejection if they never heard about Jesus to begin with? He says: rejection of Jesus is not the only thing that will take them to hell, because Psalm 19:1-6 and Romans 1:19.

There are more to the audio, it is very interesting. I actually answered that same question the other day, when a friend of mine posted a joke on his facebook that went more or less like: a Inuit hunter asked the local missionary priest: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" "No, not if you did not know", said the priest. "Then why did you tell me?"

I quoted Romans 3:23 and Romans 1:20. My friend, who is not a Christian and has a very cynical view of Christianity, didn't like my answers. I further added that ignorance is not a bliss. =)

I hope this helps!

Grace and Peace,

E.

#106  Posted by Elaine Bittencourt  |  Thursday, March 04, 2010at 1:12 PM

Just to add a little something. All that RC Sproul says can be supported by the Bible, but unfortunatly he doesn't quote the books/verses, I wish he did so people could just open their Bibles and read. You'd have to know the bible at least a little to recognize what he is saying. So there we go, back to what he says in the very beginning, that we need to be able to make a defense fpor the hope that lies in us, which is 1 Peter 3:15.

You see, I don't usually know where all the references are, but I can recognize a lot of them, so I just google it until I find it.

#107  Posted by Shona Cohen  |  Thursday, March 04, 2010at 1:49 PM

John Joseph,

Is there a precise part you dont understand. You are under great guidance already but if i can help you too, i will. Flying visit tonight....

But, just like to say thankyou for posting that link too. God provides always, and he has just done that in the Truth battle through you posting that link to help my Children and I stopping suppression of Truth! How great is God!

My 12 year old daughter was punished and lambasted by an 're teacher' the other day was giving the gospel correct answer on why people would not be forgiven by God. She gave a full answer and included the word hell and why they would go there - and was taken apart for it in class. Told it was a most inappropriate response. Her retort was, far from inappropriate, it is teh only appropriate response there is because it is the Truth. Good, that at this point all her peers (again) turned away from the teacher to her, but needless to say she came home, angry, (but understanding of why such evil from teacher) so i go through it all with her, and i smiled deeply at link cos just in way sproul did - thats how God works through people, Truth takes the same paths and speeches and questions, and of course she goes back to school and throws the Truth right back at them with the full scripture back up, (and i end up gettign reported to ss again for child abuse lol every time - and called insane, but thats ok - many teachers in there being evangelised now too through the stand up against all the so called Christians in there).. but i cant wait to let her hear this link when she is up tomorrow. She will give it out to them all as further back up - as if that is needed, not, but...she wil take it like total ammunition to the Truth suppressors!

Secondly, my eldest daughter, who is 15 is so passioned abuot spreading the word, she had to be counseled and comforted some months ago with her asking me questions and reading more scripture cos she was so concerned about 'friends' rejecting God/Christ, in tears, it really got to her at a point what they were doing with their lives. She was absolutely fine again with some expansion on what she had read given, and why they wont protest either once actually in Hell if they keep it up. (Not so negative is that one, i impounded on her the positives, that these kids all follow us to Church...nd they arent asking all these questions non stop for nothing and they take in one thing, then reject a bit, tehn accept, then move onto nother question, etc, all positive;-)) But again your link gives great recoverage of what she has already been told, so thanks again..i always like to back everything up not just with what i say, but with Gospel, and if i can getr the precise Truth spoken from a good teacher for them on top - impossible to find that provision for them, before i got here - better still!

And lastly, my eldest son who is 10, was recently asking the proverbial question, what happens to the innocent, to which i said, what innocent? and expanded. And sproul has gone down entire correct route again....so i will let him too hear this link tomorrow for further edification.

And i laughed too at link cos in a situation my family have faced filled with Truth suppression to teh brim against us, one leading it, said we have to be very careful cos we could end up in a court case here. I said, actually, you already are in a trial and all you are doing is increasing your guilt in the real trial the more you reject Truth, hide Truth and lie about my family and I.

To show you the power of God himself and his evidence in relation to Sprouls link. The most ordinary, yet amazing, godly, holy man i know - exceptional in not falling, long ago told me about stuff where there were not even lights left in the sky and the terror of search for them, a light. Such horrific experinces and religious infiltration that light had almost been obliterated (it never can be completely)...He is now so with Truth and Spirit and light and inpetrable by evil to a high level, he is yet another amazing example of irresistable grace. And he had never know the God that is, only the one that is not through teachings and other stuff, but he always knew God existed, like i did too through the sky and heavens themselves and all of the creation put there for us. So, yes it is enough evidence, from day 1.

Thankyou Joseph, you may think of yourself as young in faith maturity, but you have certainly provided me and my children with a pretty amazing link as total ammunition in our stance for Truth, it just totally parrots what we have said, cos it is Truth, so helps us a lot v system, since we are all just 'mad' eh ...so there is no doubt God is not working through you! God Bless!

#108  Posted by Shona Cohen  |  Thursday, March 04, 2010at 2:11 PM

To go back to the avalanche aboe re GTY ministry products and being called coin collectors.

I just got my first delivery today of products from this site. I am awed, and that is all i can say.

Study Bibles that i comparing with the vast amount of various study bibles i already have in the house for self and family....Johns costs less than every other one in here, (it actually costs less than the (not study) bibles my under 10's have!) and on each key point sporadic verse check, it is more expansive and elucidating. So, id like to know why so cheap if anythign and how it can be done so cheap. And why others so expensive for less stuff inside.

Next, study books. I dont buy magazines, but it would cost me the same price here to buy a filthy magazine full of worldly ---- of a shelf as one of John's book studies, pennies almost, yet at a quick flick through 2 i got to begin with for our home - they are the best biblical teaching and questioning tools ive seen!!

As for the donations comment, i live below our poverty line, doesnt matter, all we need is a tent and a sweeping brush eh - but a house keeps das system happy lol, we have the real riches instead, but have not hesitated at all to donate to this site, very meagre amoubnt eh - if i were 'rich', oh what id give eh, but the more people can gain the Word of God in True form from it the better!!! We cant all have our gobs everywhere, so empowering mouths to spread THE Truth more is the next best thing....

#109  Posted by Shona Cohen  |  Thursday, March 04, 2010at 4:36 PM

We have an evangelial mess in this a.tual thread when women are not helping men from the floor position of what they have learnt, but from above them as tea.hers. A resistable, disgra.e.

#110  Posted by Trevia Jimenez  |  Thursday, March 04, 2010at 5:45 PM

To Moira #78:

Yes, unfortunately that is true. But I would think, that one would be more concerned about what the Lord thinks rather than man.

#111  Posted by James Ross  |  Thursday, March 04, 2010at 10:25 PM

#19 Elaine

I do tend to ramble some, I was just looking at this scripture and I think Revelation is important because it is from our Risen Lord after the Cross and seated in Majesty and Glory and all authority in heaven and earth and under the earth has been given Him. This scripture gives be pause as to the works "12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." I would like Dr. McArthur exposition on this verse maybe Dr. Hayford will discuss it as he is currently going though the book of Revelation on Spirit Formed. I along with most who blog this site take a very high view of scripture, though not as high as some. I can't committ to textual ifallibility given the problems with manuscripts. Some hold only the infallibility of the original writings by the prophets and the apostles which do not exist or have not been found.

Perhaps the Great White Throne Judgement is refering to the works of the saved the "Believer", "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." However it is played out it is sobering and fearful these Words from our Risen Lord.

The reason I put the scriputure in is because it refers to works. (not the only place in the Lord's Words". Perhaps this would lead Dr Graham and others to come to some conclusiion as to salvation by works and again I say this may be the works of the "Believer". I have been a little uncomfortable by my bible study in Tabletalk this month because it speaks of the Grace of the Old Testament as compared with the New and yes God has been Grace from the very moment He spoke us into being and there is much Grace in the Old Testament especially for the Patriarchs they like us are pretty hard for God to work with given the depravity of our souls. However it pales in comparison with the Cross.

John Shauna Bryant, were the Gospel in effect or so prevalent in the Old Testament it seems there would have been no need for the Cross. I think it is clear the children of Israel were under a curse the curse of the Law the Cross freed us from the Curse ended the atoning animal sacrifice by the sacrifice of the Unblemished Lamb and gave us a life of Grace for all who receive by Faith. I see nothing but death for myself in the Law and am thankful I live under Grace.

I also think given the Prophetess and women deacons of the Bible we should be open to the discussion of women preachers and Deborah the Judge. We must accept the whole of Scipture from Genesis to Revelation and not just that which supports our postions or the postions of our denominations. Paul could have been writing to an incident in a local congreation and not for the whole church.

In His Service Grace and Peace and LOVE. James Reid Ross

#112  Posted by Rick White  |  Friday, March 05, 2010at 5:17 AM

John,

Thanks for posting that link for R C Sprouls comments.First,I think you misunderstood What R C is saying.In your post #93 you said "He stated that if a person recognized the existence of God through the power of creation and lived accordingly that they would be in heaven".What R C was actually saying is that the so called "innocent native" will be judged or condemned for suppressing the truth that he was given in creation Romans 1:18-32.In other words there is no such thing as an "innocent" person Romans 3:10-18,23.So,the difference between what R C was saying and what Billy Graham was saying is that R C is saying that the so called "innocent native" will be condemned and Billy Graham is saying he will be saved by some mystical means other than the gospel of Christ.I realize that I'm repeating much of what Elaine Cavalheiro said but I was just trying to type my response while it was fresh in my mind and I didn't want to lose my train of thought.That happens sometimes to us old-timers.I hope that cleared some things up for you.

#113  Posted by Fred Butler  |  Friday, March 05, 2010at 5:25 AM

James #111,

John has done a study on that passage.  Go to our resources page and search under the book of Revelation.  Both the audio and transcripts will be available.

#114  Posted by James H Russell  |  Friday, March 05, 2010at 6:23 AM

John et al

May I jump into the discussion for a second to add another facet: RCS is correct in his protasis/aprodosis ( i.e., IF…THEN): “If there were innocents, then….“

Romans addresses the first Adam and the second Adam (Christ). We were “in Adam” and when he sinned we sinned. Literally. Now, stay with me: in Genesis 14.20ff, Abraham paid tithes to the King of Salem, namely Melchizedek. The writer of Hebrews, arguing that the priesthood of Melchizedek is superior to the Aaronic priesthood, points out that Levi (while still in the loins of Abraham) paid tithes to this King. The lesser pays to the greater. (Heb 7:9 “We could even say that when Abraham gave Melchizedek a tenth of everything, Levi was giving a tenth of everything. Levi gave, although later his descendants would receive a tenth of everything.”)

So, then, we were literally “in Adam” (physically in the loins of Adam borne out by recent discoveries in DNA), so when sinned. I sinned. (Romans 3:23 “For all HAVE sinned…” (RWP states this is a constative – takes the action as a whole or a timeless tense -- second aorist active indicative of hamartanō as in Rom 5:12.) This tense gathers up the whole race into one timeless, comprehensive, all-inclusive statement. There are no innocent natives: if they were in the loins of Adam they sinned “in him” like the rest of us….

~JHR

#115  Posted by Elaine Bittencourt  |  Friday, March 05, 2010at 6:36 AM

Good morning all!

I am listening to Pastor MacArthur's general session 1 at the Shepperd's Conference (2010), it talks about the separation that needs to exist in between the world (darkness/unbelievers) and the church (light/believers).

http://www.shepherdsfellowship.org/media/details/?mediaID=5202

I wasn't sure which topic to post this under, I am sorry.

E.

#116  Posted by Rick White  |  Friday, March 05, 2010at 7:16 AM

James,

Excellent point.It just goes to show that there is no escape for any of us other than by the second Adam,Jesus Christ.We're all sinners and none are innocent.The "innocent native" is a myth.

#117  Posted by Rick White  |  Friday, March 05, 2010at 7:28 AM

Elaine,

Good morning.Thanks for posting that link.I downloaded it and I'm going to listen to it tonight.

#118  Posted by John Joseph  |  Friday, March 05, 2010at 7:55 AM

Elaine, Rick, Shona and James,

Thnak you for guiding me through some of the issues i was having with the RC Sproul question. Your explanations made a great impact on my understanding.

James,

When you speak of "physically in the loins of Adam borne out by recent discoveries in DNA", what discoveries are you speaking of?

Thank You Kindly,

John

#119  Posted by Jennifer Cordeiro  |  Friday, March 05, 2010at 9:59 AM

“Let us not sleep, as do others.” I Thessalonians 5:6

"There are many ways of promoting Christian wakefulness. Among the rest, let me strongly advise Christians to converse together concerning the ways of the Lord…Christians who isolate themselves and walk alone, are very liable to grow drowsy. Hold Christian company, and you will be kept wakeful by it, and refreshed and encouraged to make quicker progress in the road to heaven. But as you thus take ‘sweet counsel’ with others in the ways of God, take care that the theme of your converse is the Lord Jesus. Let the eye of faith be constantly looking unto him; let your heart be full of him; let your lips speak of his worth. Friend, live near to the cross, and thou wilt not sleep.” Charles Spurgeon-from Morning and Evening readings

In reading the posts, I see that many of us are isolated because we have not been able to find a church that believes as we do. I have appreciated reading the posts and participating in this blog for the outlet it offers to communicate about God and His work.

Pastor MacArthur sometimes talks about God being "transcendent" and certainly we see this in His salvation-Does man ever imagine, when he imagines God, that He would come to those that had offended Him and fulfill the law for them?

Praise the Lord for His Great Mercy. Who is like our Lord? To reach out and save His people!

#120  Posted by James H Russell  |  Friday, March 05, 2010at 1:02 PM

John:

Concerning DNA etc, Be it known I am neither a scientist (nor the "son of a scientist"); and be it further known I don't want to go down a rabbit trail (if you've hunted 'possum you know a dog's no good if he can't stay on the scent of a 'possum ;-)

When I inserted the word "recent" I was giving away my age: it just seems like yesterday that DNA testing started -- wasn't it in the late '70s?? I was speaking in general terms meaning that our DNA code was in Adam and Eve. Were we physically there? I've heard there is evidence but cannot find any irrefutable empirical data. We could also discuss the origin of the soul: is is traduced from the father? or created at the moment of conception by our Creator God? Hmmmm... Doesn't matter: in an ethical sense we were there (as per Romans 1-5)

Jim

#121  Posted by Jennifer Cordeiro  |  Friday, March 05, 2010at 3:42 PM

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#122  Posted by Michael Procella  |  Friday, March 05, 2010at 6:33 PM

While I was a seminary student at NOBTS, a group of guys were casually talking about different things, and one student made a comment about how great Billy Graham's ministry was. After hearing that, I felt it was my duty to inform him about the comments made by Billy Graham so that he could maybe rethink his position. When I did so, another in the group sternly rebuked me for saying such things about Billy Graham. I told the brother that if he did not believe me, he could look it up for himself on the internet, specifically YouTube. He did not do that and I was left sad knowing that this brother was not testing Billy Graham's authenticity simply because he is Billy Graham.

Sadly, a similar thing happened again with one of my best friends from NOBTS. I simply shared with him the comments Billy Graham had made so that he could reexamine him since this particular friend was a huge Billy Graham fan, but he became angry with me.

Does anybody know if Billy Graham used coworkers at his crusades to sit throughout the audience and go forward when Billy would make his invitation so that more people would be more likely to go forward and make a decision? I heard a sermon once by Paul Washer where he said he knew of an evangelist who did that, but he did not name the so-called evangelist. Also, I am still looking in the Bible where people were called to make a decision. Was it not always repentance and faith? Don't get me started on the invitation.

Lastly, are any of you other saints questioning the validity of Billy's salvation? I cannot help but wonder if someone who makes comments like those is actually saved.

#123  Posted by James H Russell  |  Saturday, March 06, 2010at 7:02 AM

Michael,

I think it's commonly understood that those going forward at the invitation in any large evangelistic campaign are both respondents as well as "personal workers" (counselors). Even local churches have a personal worker or 2 subtly move to the front to be available for respondents but to also give the sense of "movement" to those who are on the fence whether to "go forward" or not. This raises the question of not just "ethics" but their theology (pneumonology, soteriology, etc) along with the "public invitation.

Again, the question is whether Dr. Graham ever really worked out his own theology? I wonder how could he have and be so...er, "eclectic"? His most recent gaffes are so revealing.

A friend of mine with a Ph.D. in New Testament, is an adjunct professor, and pastors a fine local church. He was on a plane out of South Bend. Seated next to him was a Jesuit prof at Notre Dame; he was on a trip to dialog with Protestant leaders. During the course of the conversation my friend asked this Jesuit how/why the dialog between Protestants and Catholics has come to be. Among other answers the Jesuit answered "Billy Graham. He opened the door."

#124  Posted by Theo Parillo  |  Sunday, March 07, 2010at 4:20 AM

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#125  Posted by Theo Parillo  |  Sunday, March 07, 2010at 4:56 AM

Apostle Paul wrote in his letter to The Galations; Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

There is only one gosple, one truth; Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

#126  Posted by Dani'el Freeman  |  Monday, March 08, 2010at 1:15 AM

Just the fact that Graham was on Schuller's show at all was a shock to me, but then he spoke and again on Larry King.

I've since read others who say these heresies are nothing new for Graham.

But what sealed it for me was when they opened that "shrine" the "Billy Graham museum". What man of God would glorify himself with such a thing? At the opening ceremonies, three of the wickedest men on the earth were stqnding behind Graham on the stage. Billy Carter, trilateral, divider of Israel, and this year supporter of female pastors at the SBC. Then Bill Clinton, Rhodes scholar, need I say more? and George Bush, skull and bones architect of the new world order.

Billy called these men members of his flock. And now in the last days, preaching universalism to the world. It seems that BG is Satan's greatest counterfeit ever.

2Co 11:13

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.ight

It's on folks. The great "falling away" or "Apostasia" of the last days is fulfilled! Just as shocking are those who are rushing to defend Graham, like Zacharias, and many more.

2Jn 1:9

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

2Jn 1:10

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

2Jn 1:11

For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.